Do you blip the throttle of down changes?

[MarkCup]

Great thread...with a lot of misinformed opinions!

Fast eddie - very good explanation

Double (de) clutching does have a place in my opinion as whenever I do it, it is noticeable that the next gear engages much more smoothly, it just slips in so easily.

Having said that, it takes (for me anyway) too much concentration as I've not been doing it long but was determined to teach myself so had a go...

Video of my feet attempting it is here...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WD5zq0Jkpoo

I'm very slow at it, but it should help you see each of the stages as explained by fast eddie.

Heel and toe changes - as said this is vital if you want to maintain balance and preserve your clutch, and that applies regardless of if you're doing a downchange on track from 3rd to 2nd while trying to set a lap record, or a gentle shift on the road so as not to spill the curry in the passenger footwell.

 

[Paul J]

So can anyone see an advantage of not preforming heel/toe? (in track situations)

I do blip on the road but when going balls out i shift the conventional modern way.

 

[MarkCup]

There's no advantage Paul to not doing it on track or road.

It's ALL bad, for both the car and your progress.

 

[Henry]

how long did it take you to learn Mark?

the main reason i'm reluctant myself is because i trail brake (which is fun) and am worried that it'd take me an age to learn the required sensitivity to be able to do that whilst H&T'ing

 

[Paul J]

I disagree with the progress part, i see the advantages to its use tho

 

[fast_eddie]

MarkCup,
the curry point is quite a good analogy as I think it was Jackie Stewart that could drive around a track with an egg on a plate and not lose the egg.... I have really tried all my life to be THAT smooth and I cant get any where near the egg scenario!!
All I know is that if I see or hear or read about someone doing something different in a car(that looks faster/smoother)I wil try my hardest to learn how to do it-thats how much I love driving!!

Some of the Japanese drifting guys have me laughing out aloud at what they do and I would love to sit in a car and just watch/feel what they do as I believe I would learn a lot!!

Btw I also shed a tear when Colin McRae died as he was an inspiration too!!

 

[MarkCup]

When he was competing Jackie Stewart stated once that the reason he was so much quicker than anyone else was because he was smoother coming off the brakes meaning he was more balanced as he entered turns.

More balance equals more grip equals higher exit speeds equals higher speeds down the next straight.

It's all about getting the most from your tyres, and to do that you need to be balanced.

Heel and toeing helps balance so equals more grip and is therefore quicker.

Theoretically of course...but that's what I strive to achieve...balance and smoothness.

You sure it was a plate and not a bowl? You might be chasing the impossible

 

[Paul J]

Mark, if you discard the mechanical sympathy part, do you think by clutch control and brake modulation you cannot achieve the same degree of smoothness in the Clio as heel-toe?

Do you ever comprimise outright braking and therfore laptime due to the brakes limits on the Clio?

 

[Ex-User (19928)]

drive around a track with an egg on a plate and not lose the egg

Ummm, I don't know about you, but when I go round a corner, things hit the sides (including passengers in the Clio). There's no escaping lateral G force.

When he was competing Jackie Stewart stated once that the reason he was so much quicker than anyone else was because he was smoother coming off the brakes meaning he was more balanced as he entered turns.

More balance equals more grip equals higher exit speeds equals higher speeds down the next straight.

It's all about getting the most from your tyres, and to do that you need to be balanced.

Heel and toeing helps balance so equals more grip and is therefore quicker.

Theoretically of course...but that's what I strive to achieve...balance and smoothness.

You sure it was a plate and not a bowl? You might be chasing the impossible

You planning on doing the Ring next year Mark?

do you think by clutch control and brake modulation you cannot achieve the same degree of smoothness in the Clio as heel-toe?

Do you ever comprimise outright braking and therfore laptime due to the brakes limits on the Clio?

You can still modulate the brake if you need to, after all, you're only dipping onto the accelerater for a moment.

One thing I found myself doing was not pressing the brake nearly as hard as it could take because I only had my toes on the brake (bad feet positioning).

 

[MarkCup]

I'm sure there's the possibility of getting close to it Paul, however, the bottom line is the only reason we change down a gear is to make sure you've got the right ratio for when you need to accelerate again.

Brakes (not gears) are for decceleration, and to maximise that you need to make the most of the 'traction circle', i.e. keeping the tyres on the limit/threshold of locking up.

By not heel/toeing you're introducing some uncontrolled deccelerative forces upon the car - if you're already threshold braking it'll cause you to lock up. If it doesn't cause you to lock up, you're not braking as hard as you're car is capable of in the first place.

I can understand what you're getting at I think, but I'd say it's impossible to 100% threshold brake, then ease brake pressure back say 15% to allow for the downchange still keeping you at the 100% threshold.

When you start introducing trail braking into the equation i.e. braking past the turn-in point right up to acceleration prior to the apex, it gets a lot more complicated. A non-heel/toe downshift then becomes almost impossible to regulate, as you've also got sideways loads/forces on the car; get that wrong and you'd swap ends with ease.

Edit: CK - definitely. Want to do the Easter (ish) trip if possible.

 

[Dan@SJM]

I always heel and toe, everywhere, no matter what speed etc. im just in the habit now, and i doubt i will ever stop.

 

[Paul J]

I can understand what you're getting at I think, but I'd say it's impossible to 100% threshold brake, then ease brake pressure back say 15% to allow for the downchange still keeping you at the 100% threshold.

Yeah, thats exactlly what i am reffering to You are right about achieving 100% thinking about it, but i cant be far off