Down on my power but not sure why?

Greeny. · Apr 5, 2009

After the EA RR day today my car only made 163 bhp/151 torque :/ I have the following engine mods:

80mm ducting directy from foglight into standard airbox with a K&N Panel
2.5" stealth system
de-cat
Rs-Tuner GrpN remap

I am currently running fully synth 0w30 oil which will be changed ASAP, but I dont know why im so low on power considering Gregg who also ran a 172 ph2 has basicly the same mods minus the foglight feed and a different airbox but made 173.5bhp! SAY WHAT

Suggestions?

sideways danny · Apr 5, 2009

Usual suspect would be cam timing. If that's ok then a compression test may show something up

Greeny. · Apr 5, 2009

sideways danny said:
Usual suspect would be cam timing. If that's ok then a compression test may show something up

Thanks Danny, how much would you expect a cam timing check and/or compression test to cost?

davebem · Apr 5, 2009

What condition is your filter in?? As a lot of people have aftermarket filters but dont clean them?? I would have thought if the timing was out by even a little it would be a lot less (approx 140hp).

Greeny. · Apr 5, 2009

My panel filter is 2years+, I have cleaned it but how well that worked I dont know. Maybe I should try that as a first port of call!

matty172cup · Apr 5, 2009

some rollers bring out different figures but doesnt meen your down on power if it feels the same then i wouldnt worry but try a compression test an i would advise using a different oil like millers cfs fully synthetic 5w 40

Matty

Jamesstone · Apr 5, 2009

We have been trialing cold air feed methods & the one we ran down to the fog light produce the least power, can only be put down to the amount of bends, strange to be that low though considering you have a de-cat & map to suit

Chrisjk · Apr 5, 2009

Was an odd result, as my std 172 made 165hp

Coby. · Apr 5, 2009

It always seems to pull really well Dan so I wouldn't worry too much.... Oil Change and Filter Clean/Change and I reckon it'll run well...... How long has it been since you updated the RSTuner as I'm sure Henk releases updates on the 98 Ron/GrpN maps

Greeny. · Apr 6, 2009

Jamesstone said:
We have been trialing cold air feed methods & the one we ran down to the fog light produce the least power, can only be put down to the amount of bends, strange to be that low though considering you have a de-cat & map to suit

There is only really 1 major bend when it goes to the fog light, considering I lost 5mpg when I fitted it I thought it might be helping with the extra airflow!

RsTuner was updated a month ago or so, was abit strange considering dannys stripped 172 made 168bhp and we have twice now been totally neck and neck on a private road. I dont think it helped not having a feed of cold air into my feed when the RR was on though tbh.

I think my first port of call will be to get a ph1 airbox with a new ITG panel filter and move my airfeed to my wheel arch, a nice 80mm feed should do the job ok. Ill go back down to fms to get a retest after this and see what the difference is

Oh any change my oil back to 5w40 fully synth!

Coby. · Apr 6, 2009

If/When my Inlets ever arrive I'll be up for another run Dan so drop me a PM if you fancy going again soon as I think I'll give my car a good service while fitting the inlets and we can see what gains can be had, I'm tempted by a Custom Map by Henk aswell once the Inlets are on

Chrisjk · Apr 6, 2009

How old are the spark plugs?

Greeny. · Apr 6, 2009

Chrisjk said:
How old are the spark plugs?

Changed at its last major service with the cam belt etc, just under 2 years ago now I think.

Clio-Coby said:
If/When my Inlets ever arrive I'll be up for another run Dan so drop me a PM if you fancy going again soon as I think I'll give my car a good service while fitting the inlets and we can see what gains can be had, I'm tempted by a Custom Map by Henk aswell once the Inlets are on

No probs, will probably be in June to give me abit of time

Andyman · Apr 6, 2009

Lambdar sensor? poor mapping? blowing exhaust?

TBH you havent got much in the way of mods really and that torque figure aint too shabby plus was your initial RR'd figure slightly high due to variations?

AFR check on a RR'd might be worth a call

Greeny. · Apr 6, 2009

This is my inital figure, Gregg's car has the same mods and made 10bhp more.

Exhaust is fine, map is same as Gregg's, can only assume the sensor is ok?!

smitchell1 · Apr 6, 2009

You should find once the oil is changed and maybe the plugs if you havent done that recently that should make the car run a bit better?

Could be worse my mate that run his 182 with a simota air filter yesterday made 140bhp on his first run and 166bhp with no airbox on the second run!!!! Check out the difference!!!

Greeny. · Apr 6, 2009

smitchell1 said:
You should find once the oil is changed and maybe the plugs if you havent done that recently that should make the car run a bit better?

Could be worse my mate that run his 182 with a simota air filter yesterday made 140bhp on his first run and 166bhp with no airbox on the second run!!!! Check out the difference!!!

Was probably down to the induction kit not being made for a Clio I would have thought?

smitchell1 · Apr 6, 2009

Haha his face when they said 140bhp was a picture!! lol

olly_mango · Apr 6, 2009

give it a good service mate and loose the cold air feed, as i said to you yesterday when i had mine mapped they ran it with and with out the standard airbox and made no difference at all, so would just go with the ph1 airbox and standard(ish) cold air feed. Also worth changing the lambda for a new bosch one which i also did, seems to run much smoother now.

richy22 · Apr 6, 2009

^^^ I liked your wheels olly

Andyman · Apr 6, 2009

Greeny 172 said:
This is my inital figure, Gregg's car has the same mods and made 10bhp more.

Exhaust is fine, map is same as Gregg's, can only assume the sensor is ok?!

Ah but two identical production cars with the same mods wont make the same bhp as every car is different.

Something as simple as tyre pressures can have a effect on results i think?

On the plus side that torque figure looks pretty good for the mods vs stock.

Greeny. · Apr 6, 2009

Andyman said:
Ah but two identical production cars with the same mods wont make the same bhp as every car is different.

Something as simple as tyre pressures can have a effect on results i think?

On the plus side that torque figure looks pretty good for the mods vs stock.

Yeah and his car is 2 years newer but still 10bhp is a big difference for very simular mods.

My job list includes:

5w40 fully synth oil change
new lambda
new spark plugs
ph1 airbox + new panel filter
cold air feed to be moved

Gunna put it back on the same rollers after these have been done, hopefully in June.

Andyman · Apr 6, 2009

How did the torque figures compare?

richy22 · Apr 6, 2009

Let me know when you go up there and I could be up for popping back and having another run.

Oh and out of interest as im lazy and can't be arsed to check! Whats the standard BHP, Torque they reckon 172 have?

olly_mango · Apr 6, 2009

richy22 said:
^^^ I liked your wheels olly

Thanks mate, they not bad for cheap set for track. Yours looked good aswell, but still think white and yellow scheme would finish it.

Are we going back in October like we talked about? so then everyone can go back on and hopefully see there figures rise.

Dan check your PM's.

Greeny. · Apr 6, 2009

Andyman said:
How did the torque figures compare?

Greggs was 153 mine was 151, but obviously I was down 10bhp!

Yellow Dave · Apr 6, 2009

I wouldn't have thought the CAF would restrict it that much, the fan should still have been directing air towards it. But I would say is that you've got a good torque figure. I ran 170.9bhp but only 146lb/ft from a 182 with a V6 airbox and same CAF as you in the foglight surround.

A lot can depend on how they are 1st run in. My fairly standard lump only 6/7bhp down on an engine with decat, exhaust and RS Tuner? admittedly there torque was up a little but surely they should be putting out more than that. The clio lump can vary hugely. People were expecting 180's if you look back through the EA RR thread.

Try a good service and maybe check your routing on the CAF. The Seer was way down on power after quite a lot of money spent, turned out to be the cambelt was too tight and a good service later he was making expected figures

Greeny. · Apr 6, 2009

First port of call ill get a new lambda, change the oil and possibly get a new filter or new panel filter for my current ph2 box.

TooneySonic · Apr 6, 2009

compression test first fella. i am 10bhp down on similar cars with same mods but make similar torque.

my compression is down 20+% across all four cylinders, but car still runs fine

Jamesstone · Apr 6, 2009

my compression is down 20+% across all four cylinders

Thats abit of a loss, Cambelt failure at some point?

Gregg · Apr 6, 2009

Email on its way Dan.

Could try and get an AFR graph off fms? It did smell like it was running rich

TooneySonic · Apr 6, 2009

Jamesstone said:
Thats abit of a loss, Cambelt failure at some point?

no idea mate, its abit of a mystery this one.....

had a leakdown test after the compression performed by BenR and it came away with 5-7% losses which he assured me was not an issue.

full service history, cam timing was deffo out at one point though not for long. when the cambelt service was done the bottom pulley needed replacing as it was a miracle it had made it that far. at one point in its ownership it only covered 2000 miles in a year.... random!! trying to save for a new engine atm but its hard, credit crunch and all!!!

it made 156bhp on RStunings rollers before i started on it....

Andyman · Apr 6, 2009

^^Read your story before and it seems a strange one.

Who fitted your cams?

Greeny. · Apr 6, 2009

Sorry but how much would a compression test set me back? Not had one done before. Also as noted Gregg and others commented on how rich my car smelt from behind compared to others, what might be causing this? As Greggs didnt smell as rich and has the same mods inc map.

TooneySonic · Apr 7, 2009

Andyman said:
^^Read your story before and it seems a strange one.

Who fitted your cams?

GDI fitted the cams mate

TooneySonic · Apr 7, 2009

Greeny 172 said:
Sorry but how much would a compression test set me back? Not had one done before. Also as noted Gregg and others commented on how rich my car smelt from behind compared to others, what might be causing this? As Greggs didnt smell as rich and has the same mods inc map.

car could be running underadvanced, or the timing could be a fraction out.

as for a comp test should set you back about 1hrs labour, its nothing major, sounds more that what it is

davM · Apr 7, 2009

So, if your compressions down theres nothing you can do to rectify it?

mark123 · Apr 7, 2009

davM said:
So, if your compressions down theres nothing you can do to rectify it?

You can rectify it but it is probably cheaper to get a second hand engine. It would involve at least head off and work on the valves and possible work on the pistons/bores as well.

TooneySonic · Apr 7, 2009

yep you need to take the head off to find the fault in the first place so thats a bill to start with, then who knows what you may find....

as has been said better off sourcing a fresh engine which is easier to and cheaper....

Greeny. · Apr 8, 2009

Took apart my airbox and.... my airfeed was partly blocked up. Ive removed it for the time being and left it feeding air 'around' the main opening in the airbox. Ive also opened up the rear airbox hole which was also blocked up.