Expert HELP Needed - My Car STILL won't Start!

[J@Y]

I'm getting desperate now


My car wouldn't start after being stood for 6 weeks and the battery going completely flat. I then disconnected the battery for a few days until I got a new one. Now this is fitted the car still won't start. It cranks for a few turns then cuts. I thought it was the Sigma immobilser at first but after stripping back the loom to the brain, the immobilser on this hasn't been wired in.

So I took off the fuel line and when the car is turned over no fuel is coming through.

So far I have checked the Relays in the Fuse box in the engine bay. There are three small brown ones in a line nearest to the engine. I know one of these is the fuel pump relay but I don't know which. They are all mechanically sound but only two of them are doing anything. One is not getting any power at all... I think it was the one at the front from memory...

Does the power to the fuel pump go through the ECU then to the Relay before it goes to the Fuel Pump? If so, it could be the ECU not sending power to the Relay...

Next I hard wired the fuel pump and checked for fuel and it's coming through so the fuel pumps working but it still won't start so it's not getting a spark either.

My thoughts at the moment are one of two things...

1) Could it be the Crank Position Sensor? I know this can knock everything out?

2) The car has immobilsed itself through the ECU as a result of the battery dying. I know some of the new BMW's & Audi's will do this when the battery is removed.

The fact that neither fuel is coming through nor the car is getting a spark leads me to believe it must one of these...

I've tried plugging a simple code reader into the OBD port but it won't read it. It just keeps saying 'link error'. I also know these cars have no Inertia switch.

If the Immobilser has kicked in/Inertia switch has been activated, is there any way of overcoming this or overiding it to check if this is the problem without taking it back to main dealer?

I don't know why the code reader won't talk to the ECU? It has done before when my injector failed.

I'm running out of ideas... What's the next port of call?

Is there a pin on the ECU I can hard wire to get it to spark?

 

[f0xy]

Whats the immobiliser light in the middle of the dash doing when this is happening? Staying solid red, flashing red?

Sounds like the match between the key & car has been lost, seen it quite a few times with the same symptoms. Last time we just left the key in the ignition with it in position 2 for 30mins and when we came back the immobiliser light had gone out and the cars been fine ever since...

 

[J@Y]

Thanks for the quick reply mate. Your road trip looked awesome! Can't eblieve you did the ring with a top box on lol.

So with the key in and ignition on? I'd do this but I'm worried the battery will doe as the car has been stood for about 4 weeks since I changed the battery and don't have a charger with me.

Which immobilser light do you mean? I have one drilled in by the gearnob but that's for the alarm. Where is the standard renault one?

Whats the immobiliser light in the middle of the dash doing when this is happening? Staying solid red, flashing red?

Sounds like the match between the key & car has been lost, seen it quite a few times with the same symptoms. Last time we just left the key in the ignition with it in position 2 for 30mins and when we came back the immobiliser light had gone out and the cars been fine ever since...

 

[bmh.01]

In the middle of the clocks, top row centre. Its the dot, if it flashes rapidly then it an immobiliser fault.

Does sound that way as the relay you describe is the injector lock relay which powers the pump, coil pack and injectors iirc. The ecu will close it when the immobiliser lifts.

 

[J@Y]

Cheers mate. I'll take a look. And if it is, how do I go about getting it lifted??

In the middle of the clocks, top row centre. Its the dot, if it flashes rapidly then it an immobiliser fault.

Does sound that way as the relay you describe is the injector lock relay which powers the pump, coil pack and injectors iirc. The ecu will close it when the immobiliser lifts.

 

[bmh.01]

You can try leaving the key in it as f0xy says and see if it managed to get itself back on the straight and narrow. Otherwise it'll need clip, where are you?

 

[f0xy]

As Ben said in the middle of the clocks. If leaving it in the ignition does not work, Jonny1*2 has a CLiP for reprogramming and hes based round our way...

 

[J@Y]

Sweet, thanks boys. I'm from Merseyside, St Helens. Work in Chorley. I'll try the key thing. If that don't work, i'll ask Jonny.

 

[bmh.01]

Yep Jonny will be your man i'm miles away.

 

[J@Y]

Jonny has sold his CLiP Anyone know of anyone else who could do it??

 

[MicKPM]

Have you checked to see what the light is doing yet as this step is very important?

 

[J@Y]

Have you checked to see what the light is doing yet as this step is very important?

The light is flashing. Was stil flashing after leaving the key on stage two for half an hour. It seems there is no power getting through to the fuel pump or coilpack.

 

[bmh.01]

Immobiliser has got you then. Spare key no good either?

 

[J@Y]

Immobiliser has got you then. Spare key no good either?

Didn't try that. It won't start the car but I didn't try leaving it in the ignition like I did with the other. They're both on the same keyring at the moment though so I'd of thought both in range of the transponder.

What's the next port of call then? How do I wipe the immobilser?

 

[MicKPM]

It is not necessarily the key(s) at fault here... diagnostics will confirm/deny but it could be a wiring issue to the UCH or even a fault with the ignition barrels inductive coil pickup that listens for the key code.

Mick

 

[bmh.01]

Needs clip basically before you any further. Should be able to point you in the direction of whats actually wrong.

 

[J@Y]

Ok my apologies. I have just been and looked at it again. The Red immobilser light in the middle of the clocks is SOLID Red. It stays Solid after half an hour of leaving ignition off.

What does this indicate? Immobiliser?

Where can I get it plugged into a CLIP then? Is it worth buying one then selling it on when I'm done with it? How much would Renault charge to do this?

 

[bmh.01]

Not sure on Solid light tbh, its usually rapid flashing to indicate a fault.

Renault will be able to do it but the real problem you have is the car is undriveable.

 

[Terry172]

Ok I am going out on a limb here....I saw this guide http://www.cliosport.net/forum/show...c-your-central-locking-with-your-key-(new-key) the other day and just wondered if maybe trying to re-sync your key may help.

Forgive me if this is not right I was just tying keys and car together and saw that his immoboliser light was mentioned.....

 

[MicKPM]

Solid Red light = Key code accepted and Imob is off. As above the car needs proper diagnostics to say if the UCH/IMOB or something else is actually at fault now.

 

[J@Y]

Solid Red light = Key code accepted and Imob is off. As above the car needs proper diagnostics to say if the UCH/IMOB or something else is actually at fault now.

Thanks Mick.

Where would you suggest to use for this? Is it Renault only or are there any specialists/mobile diagnostics worth trying?


Would a Snap-on Scanner read the codes? As I know someone with a Snap-on one...

 

[bmh.01]

Solid Red light = Key code accepted and Imob is off. As above the car needs proper diagnostics to say if the UCH/IMOB or something else is actually at fault now.

Thought it went off to indicate the immobiliser had lifted? Been a while mind and you don't get change to see on the megane but i'd swear it was. Serious problem somewhere else if the immobiliser is lifting and theres no power at the pump or coil pack.

 

[MicKPM]

No you're right (just looked it up in the UCH fault finding) - Flashing LED is key not recognised. LED solid + then go out after 5 seconds for all okay. The fact its going solid though (I believe) suggests the code is being read and the UCH is okay with it but the ECM isn't disarming and activating the main control relay.

The car 100% needs a diagnostic though on the UCH to see what's occuring.

Mick

 

[J@Y]

No you're right (just looked it up in the UCH fault finding) - Flashing LED is key not recognised. LED solid + then go out after 5 seconds for all okay. The fact its going solid though (I believe) suggests the code is being read and the UCH is okay with it but the ECM isn't disarming and activating the main control relay.

The car 100% needs a diagnostic though on the UCH to see what's occuring.

Mick

Sorry to sound Dim... What's the UCH? and ECM? Electronic Control Module? Is this what Renault call the ECU?

 

[MicKPM]

The UCH is a CPU based, network multiplexed, multi-function control unit responsible for controlling various systems on your vehicle such as electric windows, wipers, indicators, central locking, etc. The ECM is indeed the same thing as an ECU and is responsible for all things engine running related... except i've always called them ECM's as that's what I was taught.

 

[J@Y]

The UCH is a CPU based, network multiplexed, multi-function control unit responsible for controlling various systems on your vehicle such as electric windows, wipers, indicators, central locking, etc. The ECM is indeed the same thing as an ECU and is responsible for all things engine running related... except i've always called them ECM's as that's what I was taught.

Thanks for explaining that. Yeh I learnt in the ford world and I think there, the UCH's equivilent is called a PSM and the ECM is the ECU.

When you say the car needs diagnostics on the UCH - you mean it needs a diagnostic scan right? Through the OBD port under the cig tray?

 

[sijac09]

This is worth a try......

Put key in ignition for 30 seconds turned and then lock and unlock the car and retry starting it...

 

[Terry172]

It may sound silly, but try wiggling the positive cable on the battery or even cleaning the terminals. I say this because I changed my battery once and after doing so my car would just sit there turning over. As I was checking the connections on the battery and moved the wire I heard a faint click some where in the engine bay (haven't a clue where) and thought what the heck I will try again and it started straight away.....

 

[J@Y]

Ok - Update.

I've had it plugged into a Snap-On scanner this weekend with the latest software update. It read the airbag computer, the ABS module and powersteering unit but the ECU would not communicate with the module.

Therefore this indicates one of two things in my eyes. The power feed/earth to the ECU has been lost via a broken wire somewhere or the ECU has packed in.

Can anyone suggest which pins to check for power to on the ECU? or which wires maybe at fault here and where I will find them? I have a wiring diagram for the car but I can't make sense of it as it is numbered and coded and without a key I'm not good enought to work it out

 

[bmh.01]

Check all the bay fuses if you haven't already, then you need to get the ecu multiplug off and see if you get 12v on Pins 29 and 30 with the ignition turned on. Then we'll progress from there.

I'd come help but I think you're miles away?

 

[J@Y]

Check all the bay fuses if you haven't already, then you need to get the ecu multiplug off and see if you get 12v on Pins 29 and 30 with the ignition turned on. Then we'll progress from there.

I'd come help but I think you're miles away?

I am miles away I'm in Wigan, Lancashire. Your help is proving invaluable though. With the right guidance I can do it, I just don't have the knowledge of these cars to fix myself.

When you say pin 29 and 30... how am I counting the pins? Starting Topleft and going
12345
6789?

My alarm loom works backwards, that's why I ask.

 

[MicKPM]

If you look at the multiplug carefully you'll see it has the end pins already numbered

 

[bmh.01]

Yep they're stamped into the plastic of the plug, very small though but should be readable. Then count inbetween.

 

[J@Y]

Cheers fellas. I will take a look when I next get a chance to go over to the car.

Should one of the pins be a permanant live and one be an ign?

One thing to note is that when it was plugged into diagnostics (OBD port) it did power up the diagnostic machine with ign on. So there must be some power going through to the OBD port, it just wouldn't communicate with the reader.

 

[bmh.01]

Nope, both ignition lives only.

 

[bmh.01]

Also a solid light is an injector authentication error so the ecu isn't giving the responce the uch expects. So its either the ECU or most probably the wiring/supplies.

 

[J@Y]

Right I have checked the power to Pin 29 & 30. Both are getting more than 12 volts through, so there is no fault with the wiring to the ECU plug.

So - whats the next port of call here? Are there any more tests to run or is it new ECU time?

 

[obcuz]

I had exactly the same symptoms as you are describing, it turned out to be a low votage (3v) on one of the two feeds to the ECU, I didn't do the diags. myself so can't be specific, but it could be a dirty connection in the plug or socket (ECU side), there are some electrical cleaner aerosols which may help, but my sparks jumped the wiring with new + feed from the fuse box, no problems since.

 

[bmh.01]

Right I have checked the power to Pin 29 & 30. Both are getting more than 12 volts through, so there is no fault with the wiring to the ECU plug.

So - whats the next port of call here? Are there any more tests to run or is it new ECU time?

You need to proove continuity and a lack of any shorts or leakage on Pin 27 of the ECU plug to Pin 20 of the UCH. Same for Pin 57 of the ECU to Pin 19 of the UCH. Thats the canbus connection between the two, and should be a twisted pair.

 

[J@Y]

I had exactly the same symptoms as you are describing, it turned out to be a low votage (3v) on one of the two feeds to the ECU, I didn't do the diags. myself so can't be specific, but it could be a dirty connection in the plug or socket (ECU side), there are some electrical cleaner aerosols which may help, but my sparks jumped the wiring with new + feed from the fuse box, no problems since.

Both voltages are fine; one was making 12.something, the other 13.something. Cheers for the input though.

You need to proove continuity and a lack of any shorts or leakage on Pin 27 of the ECU plug to Pin 20 of the UCH. Same for Pin 57 of the ECU to Pin 19 of the UCH. Thats the canbus connection between the two, and should be a twisted pair.

Thanks again mate. Although I'm not a complete novice with cars, i'm no auto electrician and I'm going to be honest, most of that ^ has baffled me!

Can you explain in layman's terms? From what you have said I got this:

I need to do a continuity test from the above said Pins on ECU to UCH.

Then I need to test for shorts or leakages... how do I do this? Test for a loss of Voltage from the relative pin on the UCH to the corresponding pin on the ECU?

I don't know what a canbus connection is or a twisted pair...

Also, to do this I need to find the UCH. Where can I find this and are the pin numbers as clearly marked on this as on the ECU multiplug?

Thanks so much for your help on this. You have been a god send so far!