Filter HELP. BenR/Anders maybe

[Paul16V]

I dunno if you saw before but I am designing for my final year project a performance air filter design for my 16v. Some sort of air box with a feed.

I did a presentaion on my current progress and my lecturer absolutely ripped my work apart!

I am not that mechanically minded but I have a general idea or how air filters work etc.

I was planning on maybe relocating my battery to the boot to give me some more space, and then haveing some silicon hose made up to fit the throttle body. Also I am having the adapter plate modified with a lip on it so that some hose can be attached.

My work was ripped apart cos he said Id done no research. The research I had done was basically just looking at Induction kits on the market now and the way they filter. For example cotton gauze filter or like pipercross, layers of different sorts of foam, some finer and some more course,, obviously the more course the less filterage or whatever.

I need to find out basically about flow of air through tubing etc. As I was plannig on some sort of bumper scoop to a large air box with either a pipercross or similar type filter inside. Therefore seperating the filter from the warm air in the engine bay.

If anyone on here can tell me what sorts of things need to be taken into account and some sort of calculations would really help (not very mathematically minded)

I only really have the basic concept that I need to keep the inlet size of the filter relative to the inlet of the throttle body and use pipework of a similar size. So there fore the air is not restricted.

I am also not fantasic on Pro engineer. I can do certain sort of things but as I am not on a cad course my skills are limited. Did you mention something about you might be able to help Anders?? Really could do with a hand as I NEED a good mark on this assignment and I only have about 4 weeks left.

Hope someone can help , That blokes knocked my confidence a bit and feel like I should just start from scratch now. He is a w**ker by the way

 

[16v_er]

sounds like a dickhead m8.

 

[Paul16V]

He is mate. He gave everyone a slating but I got the brunt of it I think .

Must not be getting none from his Mrs or something

 

[Matty]

Sounds like a good idea Paul but obviously anything you do will require info to back up why you have done it. Think that is what your lecturer will be after.

Gonna be a bit of a hard project as why manufacturers actually make their IKs the way they do is something you wont easily find out. And some probably do it just for money without research maybe. Think you may need to get some speacialist reading from library or somewhere. Demon Tweeks (i think) list some books available that may give you help.

 

[Paul16V]

ill check the library at uni. prob something

 

[Paul16V]

btt

 

[Paul16V]

no one help?

 

[Anders]

Paul,

In practice this is quite simple, you probably need to do some reading on the 4-stroke combustion process and include the basic theory of this in your report..always good to start from first principals. It then shows you know what you are on about. Trouble is with a final year report you need alot of supporting Maths and results to prove what you have designed actually works in the way it was supposed to. As you will no doubt understand, gathering results and design data might be a bit tricky for ya. A good way is CFD and the uni might even have this kinda software, failing that youll just have to calculate the surface area/air pressure/air temp etc...

It will take a lot of work to support the design, you just cant say I have replaced the old resrtictive filter with a new high flow one, you WILL have to back up every argument...like why change it at all.

As for ProE, yip I can easily provide you some IGES files but I will need drawings/ sketches for what you are planning. I can also check your meaurements with my car just to see if it will fit anyway.

Do you want the whole front end of the car modelling or just the filter?? Would be cool to do some nifty Max animations with particle gizmos to simulate the air being sucked in, but I dont think I have time, maybe somebody else on here with CG experience can help out too.

 

[BenR]

Yes, you will really need to buff up, airflow though an engine is the single most important factor, and its what F1 engineers spend all day long trying to get perfect.

Best get reading on fluid dynamics, and learn how flow velocity, turbulance is affected by shape and texture.

filtering medium now is so good, that its not really about filtering particles anymore, its more about creating laminar flow.

Filters nowadays help to smooth the directonal flow of air before it goes through the TB, initially designed to work well with trumpets (also designed purely to create laminar and smooth flow part the venturi for the strongest signal possible, although they are also great of tuning induction lengths, "pulse tuning"). If flow isnt smooth, you get high and low pressure points resulting in areas of differing flow.....which is bad.

Place the filter near the TB otherwise you will loose any benefit from the smoothing of flow as it hass to again negotialte loads of bends in the trunking.

Generally, a good understanding of the whole process of the 4 stroke cycle (as anders said) anda good grasp on tuning will help as tuning is singally interested in flow......simple!

Just ask for any specifics as itll take ages to write eveything up, feel free to email!

 

[Paul16V]

Cheers guys!

Im gonna have to get some reading done! Can you reccomend any good books I can find this sort of info? Might have em in the uni library maybe. This sort of thing is a bit over my head. Have done laminer flow in my second year and also fluid dynamics but that was over 2 years ago and my memory on these subjects arent that great!

Anders if I send you some sketches by scanning then would you be able to knock me a few ideas up. I have done some myself but it takes me ages as I am not really that competant on proE. Do you need detailed drawings from all angles etc? Measurements too? I dont think it needs to be amazingly detailed as I basically just need to provide some nice looking pics in my assignment.

 

[Paul16V]

Oh Anders, whats your e mail by the way? Ive saved yours in my contacts Ben, hope thats ok. Ill probablt be bothering you quite a bit now! hehe.

 

[DanG]

Paul heres a couple of passages to go straight into your introduction... once youve put them in your own words obviously....

"It is a widely accepted fact that increasing the air mass delivery to an internal combustion engine allows it to combust the fuel more completely and, thus, produce more useable power. Most factory air delivery systems are restrictive and inefficient. Replacing this unit with an aftermarket intake system is usually increases the mass air flow into the engine and so increases its power output."

Cold Air is denser and therefore contains more oxygen molecules per unit volume than the same volume of warm air. Since the oxidation of fuel produces heat and thus the power, increasing the amount of oxygen usually increases the produced power. Aftermarket intakes can usually be divided into two categories: Cold Air and Warm Air. Warm Air Intakes usually end in the engine compartment and although they provide more air than the factory system, they draw the warm air from around the engine, and in some cases can actually decrease power.

Cold air intakes, on the other hand, draw air from spaces such as fender wells that are protected from the engine heat and that still provide an ample supply of cold outside air. The advantage of using the a space such as a fender well is that in addition to providing the engine with cold air, the conical filter is protected from physical hazards such as water, rocks, and mud. Additionally, all fuel injected vehicles have a computer which monitors the temperature and volume of air that enters the engine. The computer compensates for higher volumes of cold air, by adding more fuel. The result is increased power throughout the RPM band.


Easily nicked from http://www.induction-dynamics.com/main.htmlhttp://www.induction-dynamics.com/main.html

Have a look on the net for any info on fluid dynamics, fluids and gases behave in much the same way... you should be able to find something on maximising flow rates...

Good luck

 

[Paul16V]

Nice one geezer!

Ill have a search on the net. It has been v handy for my assignments so far!

cheers for that!

 

[Anders]

Yeah some sketches will be fine, just bang on a few measurements so I know what kinda scale your after. A sketch showing how it is in relation to the engine and front end would be good too. I have the same basic car so If I need measurments I can take them from mine.

Ask around the uni to see if they have a good CFD package. I use ENsight 7.0 here but its on my Oynx and not my PC.

e-mail is mailto:andy.symonds@seos.co.uk">andy.symonds@seos.co.uk

 

[Paul16V]

I think we have some CFD software but my mate says its really hard and hes better at that sort of thing than me so i have no chance hehe.

Yeah the 16v and willy block is pretty much identical in every way isnt it.

Ill get some sketches knocked up and send em end of this week if thats ok mate.

Cheers

paul

 

[Anders]

No worries mate, look forward to it.

 

[Paul16V]

You are keen mate! Would be a great help if you could sort some cad out mate.

 

[Paul16V]

anyone know any good books then?

 

[Matty]

Paul, remember to quote people and reference everything you use thats not yours. Lecturers can be like wiley old foxes and know where some stuff comes from. Quoting any sources you use shows depth of research, websites as well as books as there is so much that can be found on the net.

Id get using google for searches on this topic matter.

Good luck !!!!!!!!

 

[Paul16V]

Im on the case now reseaching some stuff off the net. Need to get this sorted quick. Left it all till the last minute yet again!

 

[Ben H]

Go to JSTOR or other academic/journal parent company websites and try doing some searches there in engineering/automotive journals.

 

[Simon]

Paul, one thing I noticed when looking under the bonnet of JASs new 16v is it should be possible to move the battery backwards towards the bulkhead on the same side as there is enough space here - you would need to have a holder fabricated though to house it.

Like you said removing the battery gives you enough space to house an air box/etc.

One avenue you could explore is the facts behind RAM AIR and more interesting to me how RESONANCE influences air box designs.

http://www.snowgoercanada.com/tech_ram_air.shtmlClick here for the article.

 

[Paul16V]

Ooooh getting exciting. Im looking at so much stuff that is new to me its making my head hurt. Im printing it off and reading it at my leisure.

Cheers for everyones help. Keep the ideas coming. I am not an automotive engineer by the way so keep things fairly simple hehe.

 

[Anders]

OK, pal. Now ive got most of the front end all modelled up pretty much, minus engine and some other bits like coil and power steering bottle etc..

How about doing a completely vacuum sealed induction track like a flask?? This way all air will be at ambient temp, or even put in a intercooler turbo stylee with a water spray to pre-charge the air?? Just a few thoughts?

I will be in Qatar all next week, so cant do any more modelling, however I will still be logging on and checking e-mails and stuff.

Laters.

 

[Paul16V]

Ok mate,

Ill e mail you some of my ideas. What i was gonna go for was probably a sealed unit like a viper kit and will feeds from somewhere in the front bumper so the air is just comign from the outside like you say. Not sure what design to go with yet. You say you have the front end of the car modelled already? Can you e mail me some pics?? Sounds cool!

 

[Anders]

Need your e-mail buddy. When you e-mail me I can send you some back.

Get hold of that Renault overhead photo of the engine bay, then you can use photoshop to sketch some ideas on top of it. Gives a good idea of scale and available room too!!

 

[BenR]

Dont bother with Ram-air, you wont be able to prove it works on your car, or a 172. You need 200+mph to get anywhere near a single PSI, and making a perfect inlet tract with no sunbstantial pressure zones, plus or minus is hard.

Concentrate on keeping inlet temps as low as possible..........maybe come up with some nice heat exchange system which actuallylowers it to below atmos temp. Maybe some the use of a liquid gas, dry ice etc in a matrix. Approx a 3.3 Deg C drop is a 1% increase in density, and increasind air density by about 10% is roughly the same as a 2psi pressurised system.

Concentrate on things you CAN test.........with quantifiable RR tests....and its easier to test inlet temp chages

 

[Paul16V]

my e mail is mailtoaulmarshall5@hotmail.com">paulmarshall5@hotmail.com Anders.

I have no idea how i can lower the inlet temp. The space is pretty limited in the engine bay too. No real room for an intercooler or something.

 

[BenR]

try a dry ice or liquid gas cooling system.........come on its your project..impress...

But youll need to modify the ECU to respond to inlet temp changes

 

[Paul16V]

No, cant touch my ecu! I had to get another after that last one f**ked up.

 

[BenR]

oh dear......how you gonna mess about with reduced inlet temps and increased fow IF you can get it.?

 

[Paul16V]

i thought the air temp is adjusted on its own by sensors and sh*t.

 

[BenR]

It will, within reason......

I just thought if you were gonna do a project, you were gonna do stuff that others hadnt.

Maybe you could also experiment with induction lengths and filter locations, ducting bores etc etc....see if higer velocities help so on and so forth.

 

[Paul16V]

I would do a lot more if I had time but left things a bit late again.

Anders, will sort you some pics out this week. loads of work to do!! Can you e mail me some pics of what you have done, sounds v interesting!

 

[Anders]

Ill have to send the pics at a later date, i am in Qatar at the moment and they have just closed the airport for movement of US troops, so I could be here until the war is over. I will e-mail you when I get back to the UK.

 

[Paul16V]

Ok mate, sounds dodgy as f**k!! not a good time to be going abroad is it

 

[Paul16V]

Anders are you there?? My reports gotta be in next week. sh*tting myself now! You managed to get some drawings done on cad? IF not let me know so I can have a go myself. Ive done some but I am not that hot on Pro engineer.