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I found manifold to TBs... thank You
but i just dont know flow rate of original injectors... or what power are they up to. I know that HGP in their valver turbo kit used 21 Turbo injectors.
btw. - Can you check if primaracing site - online catalog works properly? cos i cant open it. i see error 405 afair...
Where did you find manifold? need to se one for design.
from primaracing just can get this: http://www.primaracing.com/engine.htmhttp://www.primaracing.com/engine.htm
quote: «Engine Management Systems
New : We now have available fully programmable engine computers and throttle body conversions for Clio 16v, Megane 16v and Spider. On a standard 1.8 16v Clio : Power increase approx. 30bhp plus 20% more torque. No other engine mods.»
what TB conversion is this??? twin TBs?
webcom TBs http://www.webcon.co.uk/alpha/throttlebody_price_list.htmhttp://www.webcon.co.uk/alpha/throttlebody_price_list.htm
going to look for std valver inj flow rate. If not enough for the TBs setup, it might be worth the look at a FSE.
maciek, have you looked at the std ecu? I guess that would run nicely on this setup.
the manifold:
http://www.chadil.be/67.htmlhttp://www.chadil.be/67.html
http://www.chadil.be/pdf/mani.PDFhttp://www.chadil.be/pdf/mani.PDF
and i found one some other place i don;t remember now - maybe webcon
anyway - what would make a kit from this webcon page you quoted? two twins - slave, potentiometer? im confused... :/
try this: http://www.chadil.be/pdf/Inject.pdfhttp://www.chadil.be/pdf/Inject.pdf page 6 or so... but no price, and no tech spec.
i sent a request for some more info, but no response.. :-/
from primaracing just can get this: http://www.primaracing.com/engine.htmhttp://www.primaracing.com/engine.htm
does this mean that you cant access online catalogue either?
just found this on the web
http://www.geocities.com/renaultsportsclub2002/img79.jpghttp://www.geocities.com/renaultsportsclub2002/img79.jpg
NICE!!! hill power.
oh no it doesnt work
BUT... this is wahat i got from chadil or rather:APEMA" <mailto:ak_sport@skynet.be">ak_sport@skynet.be
> Hi ,
> The multi throttle bodies kit for CLIO 1.8 16v contains:
> Inlet manifold,Twin throttle bodies diam 45mm, air horns 50mm lenght
> You keep the original fuel rail and injectors
> PRICE: 935 Eur + VAT+transport
> PAYMENT: Prepaid or credit card
> DELIVERY: 1 week
> OPTION: Special airbox
> Manifold only= 250 Eur +VAT
> We can supply all the parts you want for this car !!!!
> Regards
> Charles
still waiting for any kind of reply from chadil...
maciek, just need to know what TBs are... jenvey? and diam 45mm wont be too much? on DCOE or DHLA is ok because this is not the choke size.
what about de radiator hot air clearenc? need to know also the length of the TBs + air filter.
photos? too much doubts to believe the job would be done the wise way.
? i just quoted what I was sent...
all my plans for any tuning are delayed because of this:
http://racing.neostrada.pl/dzwon/3.jpg
uii not a pretty photo.
maciek, youll get it fixed in no time. nick, £1500 for the alpha gold kit is a LOT!!!! like the others, waiting for some replys about std injectors flow rate... at 3bars.
I belive that this can be done about 750quid. The trick is getting your own hands dirty.
kinky... or like BenR would say: Sexy. eheh
£1500 is dead cheap for everything done on teh spot....but you do have to add about 250 quid for RR times and mapping....oh well.
On teh F7 i would HAVE to use the jenvey 30mm thin type Tbs.......leaves you more options on your trumpet length to fine tune.......
Cant you find the injector manuafcturer and ask them for flow rates?
well.. been looking at TBs...
custom manifold can be made by having the inlet valver gasket and the TBs (DCOE type) gasket.
taking BenRs opinion, jenvey 30mm TBs is (by the drawing) a DCOE type, so its easier for the manifold making.
http://www.jenvey.co.uk/Imgs/Prods/TSs_2b.jpghttp://www.jenvey.co.uk/Imgs/Prods/TSs_2b.jpg
http://www.jenvey.co.uk/drawings/TS_bbw.gifhttp://www.jenvey.co.uk/drawings/TS_bbw.gif
30mm TBs why? just because of engine bay free space for the inlet. Besides trumpet length tune you need an air filter...
http://www.jenvey.co.uk/drawings/AH_Prod.gifhttp://www.jenvey.co.uk/drawings/AH_Prod.gif
Chadil sells a 50mm trumpet lenght with the valver kit, so lets not forget this. We have to start somewhere. :/
FSE is something to take into consideration, since fuel pressure on the rail may not be enough.
Ill take an inj from my F7P to see what a hell renault used on the valver.
Come on ppl... lets make this work.
This is me just thinking loudly.easy.......management is one thing that personal preference and most after mkt ones will work more than fine.
But the 30mm Jenveys will allow you to make good use of the space. If you can make a manifold that is basically dead small and is almost direct-to-head. The you can make up the rest of the inlet tract length in the trumpets (air filters being obligatory of course, but filter design will limit ultimate lenth. I would go as long as you could witht eh total trumpet length as it generally works out better than having them short.
Another benefit will be ease of removal. If the trumpets are the long part, you can take them off easy (if DHLA bolt on style and not DCOE slip on type) thus leaving a thin TB and manifold which you can then take off without having to take the head off. Unless you lower the rad or have a custom item which is lower or has a setion removed for the TB clearance. Also, heat from the rad and eliminatine it being inhaled will be most beneficial. A common airbox, heat shields, rad air deflector etc etc.
Fuel pressure. Youll come into it when you need it. If using OE injectors, than an adj unit to increase pressure (FSE is a rising rate item) and flow at that presure, or larger flow injector to keep the OE pump and pressure.....i would rather get the right injectors from the start (depensing on how much power you are planning to make).
but the 30mm Jenveys price tag is rather... erm.. uninspirng...
does Twin TB mean they come with linkage or just bare TB?
btw. Dont You think that it may be wise to use TB w/out injector mount, and retain original in-head injector position?
this idea came when I saw SF Tbodies 30mm which seem to be cheapo option then DCOE twins...?
at 91 each... but what do I need extra? only this "linkage" thing from "assembly"?
I think that there would be no difference in price of the manifold, as they are somewhat custom made anyway? (unless theyre castings)
anyway - can You BenR try to set up an all-in set from Jenveys?
paragraph 2.
Do you think that the Unichip backed ECU with good RR setup would be able to cope with TB setup? - is standalone absolutely necessary? - I dont even have Lamda sensor OEM... what other sensors would need to be disused with TB ug. and what is necessary?
OK:
another story: in one of the first links :http://www.webcon.co.uk/alpha/throttlebody_price_list.htm
therere LH/RH potentiometer /slave twins...
to make a set in clio I would need LH potentiometer, and RH slave or what?
if... then the price tag from webcon is really nice - but what lenght are they?
nyway - take a peek at this - might be useful :
http://racing.neostrada.pl/data1.gifhttp://racing.neostrada.pl/data1.gif
http://racing.neostrada.pl/data.gifhttp://racing.neostrada.pl/data.gif
btw.
this is how CHADIL is supposed to look...
http://racing.neostrada.pl/chadil.jpg
quite reasonable i think myself?
Keeping the injectors in there origona positions is a good idea in that it makes it easyer to install TBs, but in this position youll be loosing power, the further the injectors are from the inlets the better, but I think that only applys at high rpm. The best set up would be to use the ones in the head, ones in the TB bodies and another set outside the trumpets, ie 12 injectors in total, you then program to ECU to move outwards as the rpm increase, but this is a b**ch to program as finding the correct crossover point is difficult, and its not just switch one off and switch the others on, you fade across.
Im sure Ben can explain it better.
yeah, keeping the in head bosses would save some work on teh fueling system and you wouldnt really gain anything from moving the injectors far out on a rd car. Either keep them in the head or in the throttle body. Shower type injectors just above the trumpets will be almost impossible to fit in the bay. Teh theory behind injecotrs further up teh inlet tract is better mixing through more time spent in turbulant air and a slight cooling of the surround air as the fuel absorbs the head from the air. problems arise on a rd car where throttle response with a far injecotr setup is poor. Having the injjecotrs in the heard would possibly be better for rd use wihtout loosing any noticeable power.
Those Chadil TBs look more than fine, short too! and no injector bosses!
When running TBs i would swap over to full management rather than OE and a piggy back setup. You Dont have to run a knock sensor, nor can you have a idle control valve. This you can control through extreemely low rpm advance to pick up the RPM as it drops too low.
You might find it hard to run a map sensor as ther is no shard plenham and the lambda can be run on most standalone management, although mapping is more complex as running closed loop will mean the computer is really making up values as it responds to sensor inputs, in essence.
Cold start injectors is a non starter too as you can program the management to work with the coolant temp sensord to run a warmup or enrighment period from cold starts. You only need one potentiometer as the TBs will share either a common spindle betweent he lot or they will be linked DCOE style via master/slave finger type adjustment.
You will need to buy or make your own throttle linkage and its never really an issue or problem.
And a all in rpice from jenvey......the price of the TBs and linkage basically, youhave to them add management, sensors, loom, injectors (if not OE)m fueling mods etc etc........
when using more than a inj per inlet I think you cant switch off the nearest inj... the 2º inj wich is somewhere in the trumpet just comes on only at full throttle and at high rpm (testing must be made to see the optimun high rpm).
Full throtle because the mix cant bounce off on the butterfly, and only at high rpm so there is enough inlet air speed for the new mix to "travel", or fuel will fall down to the inlet walls.
The same idea explained by BenR... type slower mate, some words are just WTF?! eheh
if custom manifold fails, Chadil one seems really a good one... dont know if its a DCOE type.
I would go on std inj with FSE. Valver pump delivers 3bars... I think. Enough?! even thou its never 3bars constant flow on the rail.
Dont know how good is the std valver ecu, but it uses a 27c256prom, so I bet its not that "good" for an almost race spec inlet configuration.
M3D ecu can do all this kind of maping and idle rpm ignition adv, warmup enri etc etc and so on...
If You dont object
, can we go further with this discussion...? its really veery valuable one for me...Does often problems occur with map sensor, and tbodies? (or is it changed to something else with the upgrade?) - I mean intake pulses.. dont they mess up map readings?
lets say (just lets say) i stay with OE ECU, and fit e.g Unichip - i guess most of You know its wide possibilities... if it is possible, then lets try to make it this way first... most affordable version... not the best one prob.
looking at the above scheme...:
I have C575 - wit F7P-700 and this is really nice, as it is supposed not to have - Cold Start Injector, has no Lambda sensor... (CO sensor instead - what the hell isit?) this would prob. make the upgrade a LOT easier? am i right?
with F7P-722 there probably would be more fuss, but why not?
but either way You lose map sensor=readings, and idle speed regulator. what else? - You would have to check throttle potentiometer readings...
how about air temp? where is this sensor? and this damn CO potentiometer- what this is?
Why piss about trying to get TBs to work with the ECU and a piggy back, Im going the same route as you, keeping the standard feul rail and putting in bigger injectors, but Im gonna be using an Emerald M3D EMS, all you need is the TPS and coolent temp sensor I think and possibly air temp sensor and your all go go go. Not gonna bother with closed loop running, just do it from maps, much less hasle and surely itll be more realale and easyer to adapt to exactly what i want.
read the links BUTRE
or simply download the bible thing - around 180 pages original renault documentation I uploaded a couple of days ago loads f useful info...http://racing.neostrada.pl/bible/will.pdfhttp://racing.neostrada.pl/bible/will.pdf - ~90 pages... willy... willy... and willy
http://racing.neostrada.pl/bible/16vengine.pdfhttp://racing.neostrada.pl/bible/16vengine.pdf - ~90 pages all you ever wanted to know about F7P
around 1,5 mb each
there You can read that the pump should give 130l/h 3 bar... guess its well enough...
huh?
No O2 sensor but a Co sonsor?
Aret we talking about the same thing?!?
I doubt that teh earlier cars run without a closed loop system.
Anyhow, twin injectors setups. Yes in most cases you do not turn off the down stream injector but rather phase in the up stream injector. And in some setups you choose a rather low flow down stream injecotrs where the other 25% of WOT max fueling is made up by the up stream one etc etc.......but its totally uneccesary for rd use.
im not sure if i would use a FSE for throttle bodies as it uses a rising rate setup where as inlet vacuum decreases base line pressure increases, and with no shared plenham, running off a single runner would not be a good idea. Also, this would mean mapping would become less linear. I.e. correlation of injector mapping at high rpm becomes fiddly as fuling increases for any given duration. Then idle will be hard to map as base line pressure reduces at high vacuum.........best leave it out and get a normal adj regulator.
Pulse progression on throttle bodies wont mass up mapping as such, but rather influnce where flatspots will occur in the rev range. With pulse tunning you will uinvariably always have a dip in the range if you ar employing it. But if you use tapered trumpets to reduce the effect of pulses then you wont have to fiddle about with trumpet lengths as much, but generally fit as long an inlet tract as you can in a car. Pulse tunning is more useful on carbed cars when you can creat a stronger signal.
I wouldnt bother withpiggy back ECUs as they really only trick the std ECu by giving modified sesor inputs so teh ECU compensates with corrected outputs......still limited in its used apart from mild tunning.
not CO sensor (my mistake) but CO potentiometer - a simple potentiometer... take a look at te scheme
it hangs on the cable... around left top strut mount (on the Ign. Coil)CHADIL response:
>Hi,
>This is the answer to your questions:
>The quotation we made you is for slim (30mm) throttlle bodies with DCOE
>flange =935 Eur
>If you want the same kit with SF throttle bodies the price would be = 980
Eur
and it seems that this is not the set i posted a picture of as... there follows:
>The M.F.I kit as shown on your photograph costs =620 Eur
>The levers(linkage)between the throttle bodies are included
>You have to make your own linkage to the pedal.
>After fitting to the car, you need a airbox as extra (see our catalogue)
>You have also to modify your electronics or replace the original with a
>engine management as there are many on the market
the one on photo... 620 EUR? bargain or what? looks fine... even with added VAT
So i see You insist on not piggybacking the TBs... I will take that into account, when the upgrade comes from dream to reality
maciek, Ive downloaded those pdfs files... didnt have the time yet to read them.
The fuel pressure that the fuel pump can deliver is not the fuel pressure mesured on the rail...
the ultimate would be a new ECU like the M3D one, but homemade maping is not that simple... would say it is almost impossible, since you had to do it from zero. Never done it, but read a LOT about it and tried some maping on a "made demo" software.
Just imagine getting the engine on full load 5ª gear reving till max rpm just for listening for picking/knocking... do it on a highway? not that simple. rr ya ya ya, pay for enumerous sessions just for trials.
found something about renault injectors.
http://www.gnttype.org/techarea/fuelsystem/injflow.htmlhttp://www.gnttype.org/techarea/fuelsystem/injflow.html
btw, what kind of inj has got the F7? semi-seq?
620Eur?! the picture fails to show all the goods.
too cheap... I fear this. had something else in mind... forgotten.
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