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Genuine N/A 218bhp/185lb-ft on a stock bottom end.



D

Dan@SJM

Cracking result for this customer, vehicle was brought to me to fit a bottom end he had rebuilt. Head came from ALD, with supertech's, bottom end was just new rings and a hone with ARP rod bolts. Has non-VVT 421's, ITB's with ludicrous long trumpets (silicone hose extensions) and mapped by myself on mtech's dynodynamics rolling road.

Must say it goes like a scolded cat.

D05F43E1-3DB7-4EC7-BD0C-DFFAF677F115_zpsaccvo42f.jpg


C33AF69A-5664-434A-95E0-8C1984207F37_zpsq7ktsfve.jpg
 
Meek_racing

Meek_racing

  RB 182
I don't mean to sound rude but that sounds ludicrously high for a stock bottom end - most high comp builds don't even reach that figure. If it's correct then it's a bloody good result!
 
D

Dan@SJM

I know, I was impressed myself. The head has been skimmed, but that won't bump the compression up that much. It was loving the ignition advance though. Just keep asking for more!

I was expecting doubt, hence posting the picture of the temp readings to show they weren't fiddled with.

The total trumpet length must be up around the 200mm mark now with the extensions.

This did raise quite a discussion on Facebook yesterday actually, and to quote chip, "sometimes the devil is in the detail"
 
Last edited:
D

Dan@SJM

Ph1 Tom said:
Good to know it's not just me they worked for :)
Click to expand...
You could see on the graph where they worked and where they hindered (where the graph would climb, then drop, then climb and drop, at regular intervals) but over 4.5k it's got over 160lb-ft. But there's no way it would've made the peak torque figure it did without them.
 
M

Mr R.

ClioSport Club Member
  A special one.
Dan@SJM said:
ALD Head is about £400? And all he did was a bottom end refresh, so probably £5-600. (I'm talking parts cost only btw) non vvt 421's are £600, ITB's+management ~ £2k.
Click to expand...
Yes mate it is, Andrew replaced all of my valve guides which added another £100.
 
rich83

rich83

  Clio 200
Almost 93LbFt a litre on standard(ish) compression and pump fuel(?), must be a very good head and inlet setup, pic's? :smiley:
Do you know what the figures at the wheels were out of interest? Makes it a bit easier to compare although I appreciate comparing across dyno's is a fruitless task at the best of times!!

Also, were they specific non-VVT cams, so I think the 432 profile which looks pretty much basically a non-VVT 421 looking on Cat's website? Or, did they simply put verniers on the 421's?? Reason I ask is I couldn't get a straight answer out of Cat as to if I could fit verniers on my 403's for the Mk3 or not?

Cheers
 
NorthloopCup

NorthloopCup

ClioSport Moderator
rich83 said:
Almost 93LbFt a litre on standard(ish) compression and pump fuel(?), must be a very good head and inlet setup, pic's? :smiley:
Do you know what the figures at the wheels were out of interest? Makes it a bit easier to compare although I appreciate comparing across dyno's is a fruitless task at the best of times!!

Also, were they specific non-VVT cams, so I think the 432 profile which looks pretty much basically a non-VVT 421 looking on Cat's website? Or, did they simply put verniers on the 421's?? Reason I ask is I couldn't get a straight answer out of Cat as to if I could fit verniers on my 403's for the Mk3 or not?

Cheers
Click to expand...
If you put a exhaust cam stud in the end of the inlet cam, you'll do away with the vvt as it'll block the oil flow off to the dephaser. That's all assuming that it's the same thread of course.
 
rich83

rich83

  Clio 200
Cheers, is that assuming it has a tap or will it definitely? I know Cat couldn't tell me if the cams had a key hole for a dowel from the vernier or not? I would assume the blanks all start life the same though as I really can't see them making new blanks for just the non-VVT's profiles.
Tbh though I don't know if I want to stick with 403's, feel like if the car had bodies it could take 'more cam' and still be tractable, maybe a 431 (non-VVT 423 in mk2 speak).
 
NorthloopCup

NorthloopCup

ClioSport Moderator
rich83 said:
Cheers, is that assuming it has a tap or will it definitely? I know Cat couldn't tell me if the cams had a key hole for a dowel from the vernier or not? I would assume the blanks all start life the same though as I really can't see them making new blanks for just the non-VVT's profiles.
Tbh though I don't know if I want to stick with 403's, feel like if the car had bodies it could take 'more cam' and still be tractable, maybe a 431 (non-VVT 423 in mk2 speak).
Click to expand...
I can't say for definite that the dowel key hole is there or not, but I'd imagine you could potentially use one of the holes that's in the end of the cam for the oil feed to the dephaser. If push comes to shove, you just mark it up where it needs to be and take it to a machine shop for the dowel hole to be made. Once you get through the case hardening cams aren't that difficult to drill I've found.
 
rich83

rich83

  Clio 200
ah yeah I see what you mean, just looked at my 200 cams as they are out the engine. That would probably work on the inlet but as far as stock is concerned there are no holes on the exh cam at all for a vernier dowel. Like you say though machining might be an option, I don't imagine there is a lot of torque transferred to the dowels themselves and the cams should be fine drilled anyway, the cats are steel iirc?
Maybe still best to run a non-VVT delete cam though, the profile maybe optimised for it? v.interested to hear if Dan knows if it was vanilla 421's swapped to non-VVT on this engine.

(oh complete side note, but good to see you are cracking back on with yours bud :smile:)
 
gambit

gambit

ClioSport Club Member
  182 Trophy
Great results, i have an ALD head for sale with a very nice port and polish job done on them, not to mention new valve guides, fyi.
 
D

Dan@SJM

bashracing said:
what are standard cars making on those rollers Dan?
Click to expand...
These are usually heart breakers, standard cars rarely break the 165 mark on there. Generally speaking, they'll read 10-15bhp lower than most other dyno's. If you crack 200 on these you're doing well. Marc1330's for instance only made 190 on ITB's and 421's. (But that's not been mapped by me)
 
D

Dan@SJM

rich83 said:
ah yeah I see what you mean, just looked at my 200 cams as they are out the engine. That would probably work on the inlet but as far as stock is concerned there are no holes on the exh cam at all for a vernier dowel. Like you say though machining might be an option, I don't imagine there is a lot of torque transferred to the dowels themselves and the cams should be fine drilled anyway, the cats are steel iirc?
Maybe still best to run a non-VVT delete cam though, the profile maybe optimised for it? v.interested to hear if Dan knows if it was vanilla 421's swapped to non-VVT on this engine.

(oh complete side note, but good to see you are cracking back on with yours bud :smile:)
Click to expand...

This had 2x exhaust pulleys.
 
ALD

ALD

All heads are hand done
Ported to give good power and torque
Developed on a flowbench, Im not releasing flow figures, dyno shows it all anyway. My heads flow better than CNC heads.
Heads are done at £400 now but can do deals on them
 
D

Dan@SJM

The build took a bit longer than I'd have liked but this was due to parts not arriving/needed, and also had a complete new fuel system. Start to finish was about a month, but that also included the gearbox being away for 2 weeks. And it was being done around other booked servicing etc.
 
ALD

ALD

I'm in Pudsey

Also I can spec a head to your needs so if you want all out power, high torque or a mix of both it can be done.
 
rich83

rich83

  Clio 200
Dan@SJM said:
This had 2x exhaust pulleys.
Click to expand...

Thanks, searching on dual exh pulleys returned a lot of info.
From what I can tell it looks like earlier on with the mk2 Catcams used to give you a choice if you wanted the inlet cam to be vvt or not, and yet still would call them 421, 422 etc.
Now though there is a non-VVT section (shared across mk2 and mk3) with separate non-VVT cam numbers, 432, 433 etc.

Also seems sticking an exhaust pulley on a VVT inlet cam means timing it is a pain in the ass (must use Cats tool to advance it properly). Whereas sticking an exhaust pulley on proper non-VVT cam is roughly spot on using the OEM horseshoe because it has been indexed that way (then of course verniers as ever just to tweak if required).

More than likely need ITB's too as it appears ditching VVT makes the idle worse, so all in all def not something I'll be doing to my 403's & on stock plenum!

Cheers
 
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