handling problems Clio RS

[marco]

Hi,

on my clio RS, I recently replaced the standard tyres (195/50/15 Michelin Pilot SX GT) on standard 15" rims ET(offset) 43) with OZ Titans 16" (ET37) and 195/45/16 Goodyear Eagle F1s GSd2.

After this tyre conversion the cars handling and steering response have been downgraded to a level that I find totally unacceptable for this type of car.

Complaints: (all with these tyre pressures:front 2.6 Bar /rear 2.4 bar)

1) When entering a reasonably fast "S-like chicane" theres a noticeable delay between turning the steeringwheel and the chassis changing direction.When exiting this chicane and thus centering the steeringwheel again there is a point were I can feel the back of my car floating (following the corner) and after a delay returning to the desired driving direction.This complaint is not speed related because it is also noticable at lower,normal driving speeds

2)On the Highway ,at speeds above 140 km/u I feel totally unsafe because the steering-feel is completely gone( I mean very,very light steering with no selfcentering straight-ahead position).Also from this speed onwards there is a lot of vibration in the steeringwheel. At 200+ km/u the car is very,very unsafe(Germany is next door....)

3)When quickly turning the steeringwheel 1/2 turns left-right-left (like F1 cars do to warm up the tyres) the car feels completely "boaty" like I am driving on a very slippery surface,and again the back-end follows with a noticeable delay.

4)When driving over a small bump in the road, the downward movement of the chassis is not properly dampened,the car tends to "rebounce" a second time.Most noticeable at the back

5) the self-centering effect of the steeringwheel after taking a corner is completely gone,

After fitting the standard 15" tyres as a test , all of the above complaints are gone and the car becomes alive,responsive and very secury at high speeds.

Because Ive read some negative issues concerning the Eagle F1s wich reflected my own complaints,last week I replaced the F1s with Pirelli PZeroneros (same size) but these tires are even worse than the F1s............

I know that there are a lot of Clio RSs in this Cliosport Forum that have upgraded tyre-wheel combinations like I have.

These are my questions:

-Is there anyone experiencing similar effects after upgrading to 16" or higher on a Clio RS(172)

-Could these handling problems be related to the decreased ET(offset) value,which means the wheels come outward 6mm ????

-Ive read very good reviews of the Bridgestone Potenza S03 PPs,they seem to focus alot on steering response and handling.Does anyone drive these tyres?(I know they dont come in 195/45/16).

ps. my RS is lowered +/- 40 mm on H&R coilovers and has a Sparco strut-bar (which fits nicely).Tire pressures: Front 2.6 BAR Rear 2.4 BAR.Changing tire pressures on the 16" has little too no effect .



I appreciate any comments/suggestions on the above,

regards and greetings from Holland,



Marco





http://erc.qmuc.ac.uk/cliosport/file.php?image=1064019365__HPIM0093_copy.jpg
http://erc.qmuc.ac.uk/cliosport/file.php?image=1064019365__HPIM0093_copy.jpg
http://erc.qmuc.ac.uk/cliosport/file.php?image=1064021694__HPIM0100_copy.jpg

 

[Fred@BTM]

2.6bar = 38psi (i think, which is way way too high)

2.4bar = 35psi (again thats too high)

(i think ive converted these pressures correctly, in the UK we use psi)

you should be running approx 32psi front (2.1/2.2bar)

and approx 29psi rear (2.0bar)



Your driving around with your tyres pumped up far too high so in theory there is less rubber and therefore grip!!!! (picture a superbike rear tyre) the tyre sidewalls arent able to do there work

 

[Michael]

tyre presure should be the same as standard (2.2bar) get som Michelin Pilot they are superp. and don´t wear out as quickly as the Goodyear ect.

I run on Pilot sports 205/40-17 steering are the same and grib is good so get rid of them crapy Goodyears!

 

[jonnyboy]

yeah I think tyre pressures might be to blame there m8, specially when you say steering feel goes at high speed thats a definite symptom (Ive done it myself before!)

 

[White16valver]

I think the different offset will make a difference, but Im not technically minded so I would only be guessing at possible effects.

I agree with the tyre-pressure comments - Ive driven on tyres that are over-inflated and the car has felt lethal, even in the dry.

If it comes to it, could you not get the hub-face on the wheel ground back to the bigger offset to make them nearer the original offset? (This is only an idea though! Not sure itd work!)

 

[marco]

Thanks for the replies,

Today Ive been experimenting with different tyre-pressures and tyre combinations.These are the results:

1) Presure Front/Rear 2.1 Bar/2.0 Bar :a little more steering feel at low speeds,less bumpy,the steeringwheel feels "firmer" and isnt so light anymore BUT on the highway (160+ km/u) the car still feels very unsecure and doesnt follow the straight ahead direction but just floats around so I constantly have to make minor steering coorections.When cornering fast the tyres run on their sidewalls wich I dont think is acceptable.Also the tyres get very,very hot.

2)Presure Front/Rear 3.0 Bar/2.8 Bar :very light steering (obviously),bumpy and no road holding at all,completely unacceptable.

3)Fitted the standard 15" Michelins at the rear: Much better,Floating rear-end (see 1st post in this thread) has completely disappeared.

4)Fitted the standard 15" all round: The car drives as it should (tyre pressures as stated by Renault Front 2.3 Rear 2.1 bar

5)When pushing the car sideways at the back (applying an axial force at the wheel) there is a lot of visible sidewall flex in the Pirellis and F1s but NOT in the standard Michelins.Could this be the cause of all this trouble?On the F1s and the Pirellis I can very easily manually deform the sidewall but on the standard Pilot sxs I cant deform the sidewall at all..

After these tests I have the following conclusion: the Goodyear Eagle F1 and Pirelli Pzeronero arent as "sporty" as their manufacturers pretend.Because they want their tyres to perform also good in the rain and in lower ambient temperatures they are forced to make the rubber compound softer and add alot of grooves,which is not good for dry handling.

I really want bigger tyres on my clio,but not at the expence of handling characteristics.This tyre thing has already cost me a lot of money and Im not very keen on spending another 400 Euros on tyres wich dont do the job.

Did anyone of you have any experience with Bridgestone Potenzas S03 PP ?(I read that they have a very stiff sidewall like the standard Pilot SXs and relatively hard rubber compound).



regards,

Marco

 

[Cord-172]

I have 205/40 toyos on 17s with ET38. Havent experienced many problems but I do get more bounce back off the road because there is less give in a thinner tyre. Not sure if this is related though. Your car looks mint mate!

 

[Mike Wright]

The lower the sidewall height , the lower the tyre flex. However there are many more factors to take into consideration such as rubber quality, hardness, offset, suspension set-up, and tread pattern. Sounds like your tyres are definately overinflated as posted above.

 

[Chad]

Why not try standard mk2 172 wheels and tyres (16" contisports) if you you know someone with a mk2 who would let you borrow them.

personnaly I really like the contisports but I know theres a few that dont. IMO they are very predictable. There might be tyres with more grip but when the contis do run out of grip they dont catch you out and snatch you just drift slighty. The car still gets a bit twitchy round high speed (80+ sweeping bends if you lift off but thats to be expeted with a light front engined car.

 

[Chad]

Also where the tyres brand new??



there never that grippy til you done a few miles on em

 

[marco]

thanks,

Yes,both sets of tyres here brand new

No,Im not talking about the amount of grip,this is OK for both tyres.My main concern with both tyres is the way they feel when cornering,very unsecure and very little feedback in the steeringwheel and almost no self-centering effect after the corner.The standard 15" Pilots dont have this behaviour at all!!

(Again,all tests done with equal tyre-pressures)

Marco

 

[Simon172]

yeah, when i went to Goodyear Eagle F1s on my standard 15 inchers it felt like a king captain boat! Have put some michelin exaltos on the back now. Havent really given it much yet, but they seem to feel much better than the goodyears did at the beginning! i.e i didnt leave the tyre place going "oh no my car feels like a boat!" Goodyeras are still on the front (not for long tho...)

 

[rsi turbo]

the difference in offset wont help, i had changed my std rims to 17s ( mk1 Rsi) they had a 35 mm offset and it was terrible on handling i have now changed these to 18s with a 38mm offset and it is as good if not better than with the std rims.

 

[tonykart]

Marco, mijn configuratie : 16´´ Oz superturismo´s met Uniroyal 195-45-16 rainsport. Met dempers uit onze cupclio´s en geen coilover´s. Hij ligt goed op de weg. Ik heb Bridgestone expendia S02 PP gehad die waren SUPER!!!. De problemen die jij hebt zijn zeker NIET te relateren aan je ET waarde. Wat je wel eens kan proberen is om 5 mm spacers aan elk wiel te plaatsen ALLEEN aan de voorkant. dit maakt de RS minder listig. Je mag gerust hier in het zonnige zuiden eens langskomen om de spacers uit te testen ik heb nog een nieuw setje liggen voor je. De druk zou ik ook maar aflaten ik rij met 2.1 voor en 2.0 achter !! Goed ik hoor het wel, ik ben nu naar Spa we hebben zometeen een race.



Greetz,



ps. mijn mailaddress is mailto:Tony@newfriends.zzn.com">Tony@newfriends.zzn.com





P.p.s. sorry guys no special things said just some addings for Marco. cheers

 

[BenR]

Rather than simply down to the tyre pressures and tyre composition as this wont affect centering.

I think its more due to changes in steering geometry such as SAI offset and scrub radius and affecting wheel rates.

 

[marco]

rsi turbo, what is the offset of your standard mk1 RSI? Because in fact you are saying that your RSI handles better with a larger offset rim ???

Also did you use the same tyres (apart from size) on the 17" and 18" ??Because I think this creates the difference in handling you discribe.



BenR,

Yes,I was thinking about that also.Scrub radius indeed changes with lower offset.

But since I am defenitely not the only one driving a clio RS on 16" ET37 rims there should be a lot more out there with these handling problems !!



Marco

 

[markh]

When my Michelin Pilot Sport SX 195/50/15s wore out on my MK1, replaced them with 195/50/15 Goodyear Eagle F1s GSd3. Have to say, there was a definate downgrade in hanlding/perfomance of the car.. Very "boaty", "floaty" feel to the car now. Will be getting rid of these tyres soon and do not feel save at higher speeds 140/150kph+. This was my first experience with tyres other than michelins and has taught me a lesson. Stay with what is good and you know works!

 

[marco]

youre right,but the problem is that those Pilot SX tyres are discontined and arent available anymore....

In fact,the Pilot SX GT is specially designed for sporty,smaller cars like the Clio RS(172) from tyres-online.co.uk:

http://erc.qmuc.ac.uk/cliosport/file.php?image=1064261944__pilot_sx_gt.jpghe

The tyres Ive had on my RS (Goodyear Eagle F1 and Pirelli PZero) are targeted far to much on driving comfort (softer compound) and wet traction,and dont even come close to the Pilots SXs on handling characteristics.

The new Pilot Sport- range comes only in 17" or higher.(http://www.michelin.co.uk/uk/auto/auto_produit_pilot_sport.jsphttp://www.michelin.co.uk/uk/auto/auto_produit_pilot_sport.jsp)



Marco

 

[Aldo]

I had the same problem when I bought my 17", my clio 172 come with 15" wheels (195/50/15), I put 17" wheels and the car begin to feel exactly like you say, very insecure, I ask to many people and everybody told me that the problem was the difference in size between the wheel and the disc of the car, then they told me that I need to buy "Centring Rings" or "Centering Hubs" to match the different size, this was the solution!!, really.

Now I am very happy with my wheels.

Here is the link for companies that made this stuff.

Sorry for the bad english, I am a old mexican and I don´t know to much english..

http://www.asaalloywheel.com/asawheel_e/wheelpro_v/wheelpro_access_view.htmhttp://www.asaalloywheel.com/asawheel_e/wheelpro_v/wheelpro_access_view.htm#

http://www.hofmann-industrial.com/international/MS-200.htmlhttp://www.hofmann-industrial.com/international/MS-200.html

Greetings

 

[Aldo]

This is the image of a Hub ring / Centring Rings
http://erc.qmuc.ac.uk/cliosport/file.php?image=1064270031__acs_humring.jpghttp://erc.qmuc.ac.uk/cliosport/file.php?image=1064270031__acs_humring.jpg

 

[White16valver]

Quote: Originally posted by marco on 22 September 2003


youre right,but the problem is that those Pilot SX tyres are discontined and arent available anymore....

In fact,the Pilot SX GT is specially designed for sporty,smaller cars like the Clio RS(172) from tyres-online.co.uk:

http://erc.qmuc.ac.uk/cliosport/file.php?image=1064261944__pilot_sx_gt.jpghe

The tyres Ive had on my RS (Goodyear Eagle F1 and Pirelli PZero) are targeted far to much on driving comfort (softer compound) and wet traction,and dont even come close to the Pilots SXs on handling characteristics.

The new Pilot Sport- range comes only in 17" or higher.(http://www.michelin.co.uk/uk/auto/auto_produit_pilot_sport.jsphttp://www.michelin.co.uk/uk/auto/auto_produit_pilot_sport.jsp)



Marco

Think my mums got these on the front of her Celica, and having driven it in the dry and in the wet, I can confidently say that I *hate* them. In the dry, even with lower tyre pressures than the ridiculous 38psi that was in them prior to me changing them, they just didnt key-in to the road. They felt really hard and nasty. In the wet I just had no front end grip at all! Poo poo poo poo poo. I wont be buying them, thats for sure!

(*accepted that the inferior chassis may have had something to do with the general pants-ness of the driving experience!)

 

[marco]

"They felt really hard and nasty"

Thats exactly the way tyres for a sporty hot hatch should be like !!!!This means loads of steering feel and feedback.

I agree that grip in the wet is a week point of the Pilots SXs.But I think this is no problem because in the first place I dont even drive fast in the wet.

ps. Im not a sales representative for Michelin or so,Im just trying to find out if there are more Clio-drivers wich expereinced handling probs with newer,modern,wanna-be "sportive" tyres compared to the standard tyres..

Marco

 

[White16valver]

I found that the exs valver drove better with slightly harder tyres, but in the Celica they just seem to skip across the road, like the have no grip. I like tyres to be correctly inflated but dont like tyres to still feel bad after they are! All in my opinion though, so purely subjective!

I think you may just have to experiment until you find a set-up you like!

 

[marco]

Aldo,

thank you for replying

It seems to me that your tyre problems where related to wheel-imbalance caused by a not perfectly centered rim eg. the wheel bolts are not intended to center the rim,their only function is to clamp the rim onto the hub-face.(so only axial forces) the centering-ring (as the name implies) is intended to center the rim and "absorb" radial forces wich,if the centering-ring is not fitted, would move the rim over the hub a few 100th mms ( the wheel bolts cannot prevent this happening) thus creating wheel imbalance.

My rims already came with the correct centering-rings so this connot be the problem.

marco

 

[marco]

White16valver,

wish me luck.......