Hold out for B14s or get the SPAX?

[Dan]

Right i am in the process of getting my car track day prepped for this year and I am after a set of new coilovers for my 182FF as I feel the Ktecs on it just wont hack it with what I want to do.


So the question is; should I get the SPAX RSX (rear coilover setup) right now and have them fitted in the next few weeks or should I hold out for the Bilstein B14 with the 60mm bolt spacing to come out?


has anyone had both kits? and can shed some light the differences between them apart from price?

 

[200 Alex]

I have the spax RSX on my petrol blue with cup pack.

Have to say I am mightily impressed with them. So much adjustability and the ride is insanely good! Very comfortable.

They also perform amazing when you want to barrel into a corner great kit mate. Can't recommend them enough!

 

[Nick172Cup]

Bilsteins.

People will say that they are too soft for track. However I have a set on my 172 Cup and they've performed very well on track. Amazingly comfortable and well damped on the road also.

 

[Dan@SJM]

Hold out for B14's. spax are and always have been a cheap coilover manufacturer. This shows in dampening ability IMO.

 

[Cub.]

Bilsteins. I have them on mine, and echo what Nick and Dan have said above.

 

[200 Alex]

How much adjustability is there in the bilsteins?

 

[Cup_Phil]

None whatsoever - Bilsteins aren't a track setup. You can't tweak the rebound rates and they are too soft for track use.

Spax doesn't have the build quality of Bilsteins but after switching to KW V2's I would always say go with the most adjustability

Although saying that FK Konigsports are worth a look in your price range too - they use koni adjustable dampers nearly the same setup as KW V2's but cheaper

 

[Sir_Dave]

You cant get Konigsports for cup packed 182's id also like to suggest H&Rs. Mine were epic on track.

In fact, before everyone on CS decided that they haz to haz adjustables because racecar, they were THE setup to buy.

 

[Cup_Phil]

Ahhh crap yeah I always forget the silly bolt spacing

 

[Martin.]

How much are H&Rs? Save me searching through other posts now to find out

 

[Dan]

H/Rs are 900 quid, the bilsteins will be nearly 600 and the spax I can get for 750

 

[Chip-mk1]

Mosley on here fitted some new Spax shocks to his car last month, he has already had to take the rears off cause they are knackered.

Ive never been a big fan of the brand in the first place TBH and cant understand how on CS they are viewed as anything other than a budget brand (mind you at the price ive seen one trader on here flogging them I guess they are too expensive to be classed as budget, FLOL, although god knows why anyone would pay that when you can get them from DC performance etc for less - http://www.dcperformance.co.uk/uprated/spax-rsx-coilovers/renault/clio-b.html)

Bilstein are a decent quality of shock and they work particuarly well on the clio, I reckon they are a good choice for a fast road and occasional trackday use car, I would hold out for those if I were you mate.

 

[...]

a good quality non adjustable with the right springs and valving will always be better than a cheap poor adjustable ....

you only need 1 way adjustable unless you understand and know what your doing with testing and setup ,


do the bilsteins work with a stiffer spring , as faulkner springs can sell springs in whatever rate you want all day long for not stupid money



http://www.dfaulknersprings.com/

 

[Chip-mk1]

a good quality non adjustable with the right springs and valving will always be better than a cheap poor adjustable ....

you only need 1 way adjustable unless you understand and know what your doing with testing and setup ,


do the bilsteins work with a stiffer spring , as faulkner springs can sell springs in whatever rate you want all day long for not stupid money



http://www.dfaulknersprings.com/

Most dampers will work with a fairly wide range of springs so Im sure you would get away with a modest increase on the standard valving, however I havent personally tried harder springs on the B14s

 

[...]

Most dampers will work with a fairly wide range of springs so Im sure you would get away with a modest increase on the standard valving, however I havent personally tried harder springs on the B14s

your right chip , and i would not expect the valving on the 14's to be borderline , but i was covering my arse as i never say something works unless i have tried it ......

i think the 14's with stiffer springs , and helpers if used on the road alot would be a nice setup , if someone took the time to get the spring rates right .

 

[bozothenutter]

Mosley on here fitted some new Spax shocks to his car last month, he has already had to take the rears off cause they are knackered.

.

knackered how mate?
I would like to know as I have a set on my car and would like to know what to look out for.

 

[Chip-mk1]

knackered how mate?
I would like to know as I have a set on my car and would like to know what to look out for.

Leaking fluid he said at llandow mate

He was actually pleased with how they handled prior to that though.

 

[Cup_Phil]

But on the flip side - a load of bilstein coilovers knock from the front bearing after 6 months and need rebuilding, including mine.

 

[Chip-mk1]

But on the flip side - a load of bilstein coilovers knock from the front bearing after 6 months and need rebuilding, including mine.

Indeed, people need to realise with ALL these types of shock that there are reliability issues compared to standard shocks.

Hence our more road focussed 172 is on standard cup shocks and a set of cooksport springs, done 20,000 miles on those shocks now and probably 200+ track sessions, still working well and sub 50 quid a corner.

 

[Sir_Dave]

But on the flip side - a load of bilstein coilovers knock from the front bearing after 6 months and need rebuilding, including mine.

Oh rly.

Oh and it would appear I sold my bilsteins too cheaply - as the knocking noise I assumed all of last year was my suspension (so sold them cheap) turns out to be my top mounts

 

[Luke.]

What about the AST Sportline 1 kit the Cooksport do? Slightly more expensive but good quality..

 

[Chip-mk1]

What about the AST Sportline 1 kit the Cooksport do? Slightly more expensive but good quality..

Will still require maintenance if used on a road car, but totally agreed that within reason (ie not going proflex etc) its the ultimate for a trackday car.

Plus Josh will be mega helpful with getting you setup correctly with them, he REALLY knows how to make a car go around a corner, you only have to look at his race results to see that!

 

[Bobby.]

I've got the Spax track day coilovers and I think their great but saying that I've only used Ktr coilovers and std suspension so my opinion isn't worth much lol.

I went for Spax over b14 as their was alot of horror stories going round at the time about knocking issues with the b14/h&rs (same coilovers iirc) and the Spax seemed very reliable. Now I understand what chip is saying about you can't expect race parts to have low maintenance like oe parts but the more reliable the better!

 

[Chip-mk1]

Spax seem a bit hit and miss, spoke to a few people with issues, and a few people with no issues, maybe the production tolerances are poor and its a bit of a lottery, or maybe it depends on what height they are sat at (ie maybe if people run them low its killing them for example)

 

[Cup_Phil]

Dave - nope was premature with that LOL

My top mount nut was loose as I'd forgot to torque it after the rebuild. Torqued it up and it's silent now.
There was visual play in the Bilsteins when I took them off

Chip - Have to say when I took my car to the 'ring with standard cup shocks and eibach springs it was suprisingly VERY capable

 

[Chip-mk1]

Chip - Have to say when I took my car to the 'ring with standard cup shocks and eibach springs it was suprisingly VERY
capable

Yes ours too was very good at the ring in particular on the same spec, we have slightly altered it now in that it runs a little more camber and now runs cooksport springs, and its even better on track now than on the eibachs and standard camber.

 

[...]

the simple answer is any suspension is a compromise if used on road and track , and track suspension setups get wrecked on the road in months ......

solid bushes , rosejoints etc are not designed for harsh uk roads and weather , and are designed to be checked and cleaned after every use .

most people don't realise what they are fitting and wonder why their track car knocks and bangs after a couple of months on uk roads .


i like the feel of standard cup shocks and cooksports , and if i was pushing hard enough that they felt too soft , i would remeber why i ran the track car i did before i sold it .


must look at what camber you have gone for chip ....... gut says 2 degs is a good compromise , but maybe 1.5 to not screw the tyres in general road use .

 

[Chip-mk1]

Ive not actually had mine on the gauges yet mate, Ive just set it to halfway on the eibach bolts, which is around 1 and a half degrees normally but obviously varies a little car to car so mine might be slightly different, just havent had a chance to check it yet, will get it over to Danlp6's at some point if he still has the gauges Josh Cook lent him, if not will take to protyre as I dont have my own gauges (need to get some actually but not got a flat enough floor at my place to use them on)

The turbo is more track focussed and has the eibach bolts on full neg and that gives 2 and a quarter degrees on that car (or rather it did before I raised it slightly, so it might have changed a little now)

 

[Detail Chris]

Slightly off topic and just out of interest, I understand the b14/h&r are the same bodies with different valve and spring rates. Does anyone know which has the harder setup out of the two.

I have h&r's and out of all the coilovers I've had over the years (not 1*2) they are the best setup for fast road and occasional track. The damping is superb.
What people seem to think is they must have the hardest and lowest setting's possible which =fastest which is completely wrong! A well setup suspension needs to still work and absorb road conditions rather than skip over them.

Chris

 

[Chip-mk1]

Agreed, the other problem is that hard supension FEELS better on turn in, so you think you are going faster as a result but often you arent, if laptimes matter to you then just setting up what you think feels best will always let you down, you need to actually have detailed datalogs of apex speeds etc as often a slightly softer spring will feel worse but be faster, and thats just on a flat track.

If in doubt, too soft is better than too hard IMHO

 

[Detail Chris]

Agreed, the other problem is that hard supension FEELS better on turn in, so you think you are going faster as a result but often you arent, if laptimes matter to you then just setting up what you think feels best will always let you down, you need to actually have detailed datalogs of apex speeds etc as often a slightly softer spring will feel worse but be faster, and thats just on a flat track.

If in doubt, too soft is better than too hard IMHO

Chip-bingo!!
I once had an Elise with full track spax coilovers and it was truly awfull! I replaced the knackered shocks for these and It was an absolute weapon on the road! Would hit a fag paper mid corner and spit you off!

Chris

 

[Dan]

Tbh if I had the Spax it would have them on the soft side, but I do also enjoy fiddling and playing with ratios and dampening settings as I feel it's the only way to learn about how a car should work and how you know you feel constable.

I'm in contact with my supplier as he keeps saying that he will beat any price on the net for the parts he can supply so I'm waiting to see what price he comes back with.

Also I will be using these with a whiteline and PMS solid top mounts and strut brace will it be better to have more adjustability to hone in the right feeling?

 

[Chip-mk1]

More adjustability is great if you have the required amount of track development time to adjust it.

Whiteline is pretty limited in terms of what you can adjust though, only 2 or 3 settings depending on which variation, bladed is far better but loads of money.

The pure top mounts have no adjustment, I like them though

 

[Chip-mk1]

PS

If you do decide to go Spax, DC Performance are a good place to start for prices:
660 for full coilover : http://www.dcperformance.co.uk/cheap/344890/renault/spax-rsx-coilovers/rsx125.html
575 for the non coilover rear : http://www.dcperformance.co.uk/cheap/337611/renault/spax-rsx-coilovers/rsx706.html

 

[Dan]

More adjustability is great if you have the required amount of track development time to adjust it.

Whiteline is pretty limited in terms of what you can adjust though, only 2 or 3 settings depending on which variation, bladed is far better but loads of money.

The pure top mounts have no adjustment, I like them though

Ye that's it but I suppose I should put as adjustability whilst keeping simplicity, and tbh the PMS kit might have the camber and caster adjustment ability soon so I'm also waiting on that.

I was also tempered the swap the hubs to a 172 set and open my range a littler bit it's seen a PITA when there are some good sets out there.


And yep that's a really good price for the rear coilover set I have looked at Ktecs site and I nearly choked lol

 

[Bobby.]

Ye that's it but I suppose I should put as adjustability whilst keeping simplicity, and tbh the PMS kit might have the camber and caster adjustment ability soon so I'm also waiting on that.

I was also tempered the swap the hubs to a 172 set and open my range a littler bit it's seen a PITA when there are some good sets out there.


And yep that's a really good price for the rear coilover set I have looked at Ktecs site and I nearly choked lol

If you did do this you would have to get 172 drive shafts aswell iirc.

If a set does come up that you want in non cup fittment you could drilling a new hole to allow your bolt hole spacing.

 

[Chip-mk1]

If you did do this you would have to get 172 drive shafts aswell iirc.

Nope, works fine on the 182 cup shafts, we did it recently for a mate of mine.

If a set does come up that you want in non cup fittment you could drilling a the coilovers to allow your bolt hole spacing.

You cant normally do that, you can do it the other way around to go from 60 down to 54, but there isnt enough metal on the 54mm ones to drill it upto 60mm.

 

[Bobby.]

Double fail on my part then lol.

I suppose it comes down to what coilovers you've got really, I saw on here someone with 60mm hubs bought some 54mm Spax coilovers and drilled new holes to allow 60 mills with no problems.

 

[Chip-mk1]

Double fail on my part then lol.

I suppose it comes down to what coilovers you've got really, I saw on here someone with 60mm hubs bought some 54mm Spax coilovers and drilled new holes to allow 60 mills with no problems.

I dont believe that mate, we looked at doing it when we did my mates, there would only have been a couple of mm before the hole broke through, I wasnt happy at all with the amount of material so recommended swapping hubs instead.
Just cause it works, doesnt mean its safe.

The top hole is slotted, and the bottom hole is only 7-8mm from the edge, so move it 6mm and you have a real potential for problems.

 

[dmallett]

I've got the Spax track day coilovers and I think their great but saying that I've only used Ktr coilovers and std suspension so my opinion isn't worth much lol.

I went for Spax over b14 as their was alot of horror stories going round at the time about knocking issues with the b14/h&rs (same coilovers iirc) and the Spax seemed very reliable. Now I understand what chip is saying about you can't expect race parts to have low maintenance like oe parts but the more reliable the better!

This pretty much sums up my reasoning. Now on my 2nd clio running spax track setup, did 5k in the ph1 at a guess with no problems and this set have been on the monaco for roughly 10k i would guess with no problems. Ive run both sets reasonably hard but not back breaking.

Best setup car ive been in was Rhys Beals on the AST's at the ring, though they had to go back to AST when we got back from the trip to be sorted but before that the car felt awesome!