ITB Thread #101 - reliability

[Munson]

Bog standard engine it's reasonable to expect c. 200bhp, right? My question is, are the engines strong enough that the engine internals would last just as long as stock, properly serviced of course? And are throttle bodies reliable enough to never cause any problems with starting or idling once setup correctly?

I'm very loosely toying with the idea of spending some cash on the tin 'o' beans, and ktec throttle bodies, amongst other things, are on the table. I may well decide against it all anyway, but I'd like some sensible opinions especially as the car will likely remain a daily driver for quite some time

 

[Bloooor]

I have no imput but I'm very interested in this :approve:

 

[mini-valver]

They idle BETTER than standard and reliability is no different to stock. All of this however depends entirely on the quality of install and map!

 

[Munson]

So far the shopping list includes;

Ktec ITBs
300m 4-pot fronts, ktec 'uprated' rears, braided hoses. (it needs new brakes all round anyway)
H&R
Orbisoud exhaust (not sure on this as I dont want it boomy)

TBH it's largely fantasy. Trouble is, there's not much new out there now that really makes me moist. I am aiming for something in a different price bracket in maybe a couple of years, so in the meantime I could either lose £7k on a new car, or spend the same on making the Clio a weapon. That's my current thinking anyway

ITBs - I would need to know that there wouldn't be any added potential reliability issues, as the car would be relied upon as much as it is now.

 

[Munson]

They idle BETTER than standard and reliability is no different to stock. All of this however depends entirely on the quality of install and map!

Sweet. Ktec have a good rep with their current kit, right?

 

[Russ.]

Am i right in thinking that a clio with cams and itb's will be putting out somewhere in the region of 220bhp? What sort of torque figures?

Whats the 0-60 time like? Much change on the car mid range for the better or worse?

Finally....what sort of cars will you be upsetting with an extra 40bhp?

 

[Tom@JMS]

The clio engines themselves are built tough, but I have heard that the clio gearboxes are as we already know not the most reliable of boxes even on a standard car, supposedly they are only good for around 200bhp and start to have problems at that stage...

 

[Bloooor]

The clio engines themselves are built tough, but I have heard that the clio gearboxes are as we already know not the most reliable of boxes even on a standard car, supposedly they are only good for around 200bhp and start to have problems at that stage...

Is there anything you can have done to make it more reliable? Strengthened gears?

 

[The Boosh!]

there are clios running around on std boxes running 250 bhp. look at ryan K's 182 turbo. running more than 250 and its still on the STD box. ITBS and cams wouldn't break the gearbox even though they are made out of chocolate.

 

[Fred@BTM]

gears aren't the problem, its the bearings and selectors, we were doing a box rebuild per season if we were lucky with 240bhp

 

[Fred@BTM]

there are clios running around on std boxes running 250 bhp. look at ryan K's 182 turbo. running more than 250 and its still on the STD box. ITBS and cams wouldn't break the gearbox even though they are made out of chocolate.

depends on the driver, if you drive like a bell end, your box won't last

 

[The Boosh!]

depends on the driver, if you drive like a bell end, your box won't last

Aye but im not a bell end and i dont drive like one ... Maybe explains why your v6 is broke LOL! :rasp:

 

[Fred@BTM]

its not broken! so up yours! :rasp:

by driving like a bell end i mean rushing gearchanges and not heal and toeing

 

[Tom@JMS]

depends on the driver, if you drive like a bell end, your box won't last

Your probably right mate, no rev matching etc when shifting down will all take their toll.

A 240 bhp car might be ok for a year/year and a half, but I would be surprised if the box lasted longer, it just wasn't designed for it and your putting on 30-40% more torsional load through all the components.

 

[Tom@JMS]

on another note I understand the drive shafts on RS's aren't exactly bombproof either, havent got any experience of this, can someone confirm?

 

[Fred@BTM]

na they're fine

 

[Andy GDI]

std itb kit fitted correctly, there are no reliability issues whatso ever.

 

[Adey.]

Your probably right mate, no rev matching etc when shifting down will all take their toll.

A 240 bhp car might be ok for a year/year and a half, but I would be surprised if the box lasted longer, it just wasn't designed for it and your putting on 30-40% more torsional load through all the components.

ure thinking in terms of bhp tho, where components are rated in ftlbs so in reality the gearbox isnt seeing 30-40% more torsional load its closer to only 20%

 

[mini-valver]

Gearbox issues entirely depend on the driver IMO. Scoff is running about 400bhp thourgh his original one, lol.

 

[Adey.]

Gearbox issues entirely depend on the driver IMO. Scoff is running about 400bhp thourgh his original one, lol.

that he is, and he isnt soft on it in the slightest lol but ure thinking in terms of bhp where as its torque thats relevant

 

[mini-valver]

Aye, countless 1/4 mile runs!

 

[stan*]

Theres alot of factors with the gearbox's..

Driving style, maintenance, traction etc

I think the main "persona" they have is from the mk1's, with 100k miles on them, on original oil, getting ragged to f**k by some fat boy racer.
Its never gonna last long lol.

Sadev FTW!

 

[Adey.]

mind the sadevs arnt rated to highly either and from what ive been told need rebuilds every (somthing)k miles? could be bull tho?

 

[Fletcher]

I've been toying with the idea of fitting a set of itb's to my 172.

The reliabilty issue/s are my only concern with them too.

 

[Munson]

So logic dictates that everything will last longer if abused less. I don't abuse mine - at ~46,000 miles it's on its second set of PE2 fronts, second set of front pads - everything else is original. Apart from the cat which fell apart under warranty So on that basis it's logical to asume that, tuned, it might last as long or longer, than a standard car that's been donkey punched from cold every morning for 5 years?

 

[stan*]

mind the sadevs arnt rated to highly either and from what ive been told need rebuilds every (somthing)k miles? could be bull tho?

Its a common misconception (I used to hold a similar opinion myself, based on nothing other than hearsay really).

I bought a 4 year old one (6spd sequential) from a rally car....so not exactly easy use!

In that time it needed 1 dog ring (3rd/4th) costing £86. Granted it was stripped yearly and inspected, but then again giving the nature of usage i would have classed that as standard.

A mate has a dog-box...has has seen more use than mine, and has only been apart once. That was because the flywheel exploded. All clutch plates in the diff were fine, they replaced one ring, as it was showing slight sign of wear. Aside fromt hat it was fine.

I think most failures are due to mis selection, of flat shifting without an ign cut.

 

[Adey.]

if thats the case i might have to keep an eye out for one and give the credit card a raping then lol

 

[Jamesstone]

I think the main "persona" they have is from the mk1's, with 100k miles on them, on original oil, getting ragged to f**k by some fat boy racer.
Its never gonna last long lol.

Think you've summed it up there mate ... i've drainned a clio box that was on/around 75k & the stuff looked rotten, gearbox oil is often over looked & i dont think it helps that reno "them selves" have said to me we only change gearbox oil if the box its self is being re-built

 

[Munson]

Thanks for all the input so far guys. It's invaluable knowledge.

Thinking about it, I have no f**king idea how my tyres have all lasted so long, let alone the brakes. I have given it it utter death more than thrice. I guess it comes down to 90% of my motoring over the last few years being motorway/autobahn.

 

[stan*]

if thats the case i might have to keep an eye out for one and give the credit card a raping then lol

What do you use the car for?

Ive got this for sale:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT&item=160297916523

 

[Fredy]

The clio engines themselves are built tough, but I have heard that the clio gearboxes are as we already know not the most reliable of boxes even on a standard car, supposedly they are only good for around 200bhp and start to have problems at that stage...

The biggest enemy of JC5 gearbox is torque and shifting too quick at rpm higher then stock 7250

 

[jeremy]

How often should the gearbox oil be changed? How easy is it to replace? And which oil is recommended?

 

[coatesy]

http://www.k-tecracing.com/show_demo_car.asp?id=7
whats with k-tecs tb clio performance figures? 0-60 in 6secs that means that gearbox has made the car slower?

 

[Mark One]

the box life is highly variable IMO. Really good oil of the correct grade and proper shifts with heel and toe will see prolonged life. Past 200lb/ft the box life is going to start to decrease.
The shafts are fine, nout wrong with em

Overall, i reckon the weaknesses in the 1*2 lie in the gearbox and the engine mounts but you'll be fine with ~210bhp on ITBs as the torque isnt that savage.
Straight cut boxes would be difficult to live with on a daily IMO. The wine is cool, until you have to sit with it for a couple of hours.

 

[Laura]

jons ph1 has now done 94k, 70k of which has been on bodies, driven pretty hard, used on track. no issues well no itb related ones anyway haha,

think that says alot

 

[Ali]

TBH....I can't see that ITB's are as reliable as std! Simple not possible!!

 

[drhowser]

Is there anything you can have done to make it more reliable? Strengthened gears?

nitrogeon treatment or shot peening, i've gone for the freezing and will be able to say more in the next few months

 

[stan*]

Never heard of the gears failing though...

Maybe the selector forks would be a better area to look at surface hardening measures..

 

[drhowser]

had the whole lot done, except the bearings themselves.

i thought that freezing went deeper than just the surface though?

 

[Fredy]

How often should the gearbox oil be changed? How easy is it to replace? And which oil is recommended?

How often? TBH i dont know, I usually break mine before oils needs to be changed LOL

I have tried midland, elf, castrol and from Castrol TAFx i had best feedback.
A bit more expensive but worth it.
http://www.rgracing.co.uk/Castrol_Transmission_Oils.htm