Lack of power, checked almost everything

Ex-User (107751) · Oct 12, 2015

Hi,
I believe my clio 172 lacks some power. 0-60 in 8 seconds, top speed is about 210km/h (131mph) - and I believe losing 10-15 km/h in top speed means a significant power loss. Overall it doesn't feel powerful, and I have to press the throttle to the point where the induction sound becomes loud, and shift at 3-3.5K rpm to drive with the rest of the traffic.
Decatted, Compression is 180+ at all 4 cylinders, less than 5% leakdown all across, checked cam timing, flushed the engine, replaced - spark plugs, HT leads , ignition coil , injectors , fuel filter , air filter , pre-cat lambda, TDC sensor, cleaned MAP, IAT, Throttle body .
Other weird problems my car has, might be caused by the same problem -
Intermittently very strong engine braking in first gear
Full throttle up to ~1100 revs leading to INSANE vibrations, changed all 4 mounts with no effect, loud vibration noise at this rpm even without touching the throttle.
exhaust sounds like it's misfiring every 2-3 seconds at idle, no change after all the parts I replaced.

I have no good\reliable mechanics in my country, so I want to know what tests should be performed and what other parts could be the cause. My only thoughts are to check air\fuel mixture and fuel pressure.
Thanks for any help ! :smile:

Ex-User (107751) · Oct 12, 2015

Can't edit - but something else worth noting, It used to have a loud sebring exhaust and it CONSTANTLY had a slight pop\bang sound off throttle. It was constant, hot or cold , no matter how long you've been off throttle ... More like a constant "squirrel" noise, not a loud backfire. A bit weird on a stock car, never saw something like this.

Amos91 · Oct 13, 2015

Why don't you put it on a dyno and go from there? Relatively inexpensive and at least you''ll know if there is an issue and what the power actually is.

As you mentioned heavy engine braking - are the brakes free, clean and not sticking?

R3k1355 · Oct 13, 2015

How did you check the cam timing??

It's quite a specialist job.

MicKPM · Oct 13, 2015

It depends on your ability and if you have/are willing to buy the timing tools which will enable you to do the job.

I'd recommend you take the car to someone that actually knows what they're doing though as it'll give you piece of mind.

Ex-User (107751) · Oct 13, 2015

There are only crap dynos where I live, it will be a waste of time I believe.
Brakes are very slightly bind, the car does hold itself on slight inclines and is hard to push.. but nothing major, slows down normally in neutral.
Timing was checked by the only "trustworthy" garage around here, drove 4 hours to find out they left the engine mount completely loose, the screws were only tightened 1-2 turns by hands, they re-fitted the rubber seals with some black silicon (and charged me for new seals lol), they did the job in 1-2 hours but they said you have to do a complete timing job and charged me for the full price of a timing job ... so lost my trust a bit.

So any advice from you will be very welcome.

R3k1355 · Oct 13, 2015

Sounds like the only trustworthy garage are a bunch of conmen, so in all likelihood your timings s**t

Chrisgti6 · Oct 13, 2015

What country are you in?

Ex-User (107751) · Oct 13, 2015

it's irrelevant.
Previous owner promised even way after the sale timing was done with the original Renault tools , he's friends with the mechanics where it was done, and despite the bad experience I had, I'm 99% they did check it, they're very popular and highly recommended when it comes to french sports cars.

R3k1355 · Oct 13, 2015

Well if you won't consider the timing and refuse to take it to a rolling road I'm not sure what to say really???

R3k1355 · Oct 13, 2015

Do you have a cable throttle like the Ph1 or is it the throttle by wire system??

Someone mentioned the other day that even with the pedal on the floor their throttle body wasn't opening all the way - you could check that??

Ex-User (107751) · Oct 13, 2015

Again there's no reliable dyno here, and timing was checked.
I tried to videotape the throttle and confirmed it's opening fully when I'm pressing the pedal (fly by wire), it seems to open fully. Also I'm getting 66% throttle reading (OBD scanner) when fully pressed, so the sensor is good (100% should show as 66%).

Some weird I'm getting from the OBD , unsure if normal -

Notice the time scale it in minutes - about 1 minute from the left to right, those aren't high frequency pulses ...

STEVE.M · Oct 13, 2015

Clio17271 said:
it's irrelevant.

Really,can you even buy 95 ron fuel,let alone 98 in this mysterious country?
The previous owner is hardly going to admit he lied?
I`m trying to think of a French sports car.

Ex-User (107751) · Oct 13, 2015

Please do not derail my thread, I can answer you in PM if you can't control your curiosity. I really would like any help with this issue.
Also we talked about the timing only after the sale, I could be wrong but I tend to trust him, he isn't a guy who would be scared and lie about this. Also I got it checked...

N4TH4N · Oct 13, 2015

Clio17271 said:
Please do not derail my thread, I can answer you in PM if you can't control your curiosity. I really would like any help with this issue.
Also we talked about the timing only after the sale, I could be wrong but I tend to trust him, he isn't a guy who would be scared and lie about this. Also I got it checked...

Are you 100% sure of the integrity of whoever checked it though. I know you say you are but trust me there's some idiots out there who really have no clue.

Checked for brakes binding ?

STEVE.M · Oct 13, 2015

Clio17271 said:
Please do not derail my thread, I can answer you in PM if you can't control your curiosity. I really would like any help with this issue.
Also we talked about the timing only after the sale, I could be wrong but I tend to trust him, he isn't a guy who would be scared and lie about this. Also I got it checked...

Too late to derail it.It hit the buffers 6 posts back.
I only asked if you have access to decent fuel.
OK to trust your sellers word,but from your own experience,his gash mates probably lied to him.
Please answer the question,have you access to decent fuel?

Ex-User (107751) · Oct 13, 2015

98 octane... Brakes are very slightly bind like I said, the car is a bit hard to push, but you can't feel the car slowing down excessively in neutral.

N4TH4N · Oct 13, 2015

Clio17271 said:
98 octane... Brakes are very slightly bind like I said, the car is a bit hard to push, but you can't feel the car slowing down excessively in neutral.

Id go from there personally. Get them sorted firstly. Uve checked everything else.

Dan@SJM · Oct 14, 2015

My money is still on timing being out.

N4TH4N · Oct 14, 2015

Dan@SJM said:
My money is still on timing being out.

This man knows @Clio17271

MicKPM · Oct 14, 2015

In most cases, It's always timing

N4TH4N · Oct 14, 2015

Certainly was with mine that mick sorted it after i was assured it was spot on.

MicKPM · Oct 14, 2015

This guy has admitted the vehicle has binding brakes which won't help either but timing is deffo the most likely candidate... As everyone kinda knows with these cars.

Inequality Street · Oct 14, 2015

When I bought my car I didn't realise the timing was out. I knew it ran like s**t, and was incredibley slow, but never put the two together.

Took it to Ant (Scrooge) who quite litterally took 1 look and said "Timing".

Fixed with new belts (correct tools etc) and I now have a quicker, quieter, more enjoyable car to drive. Get it checked man!

R3k1355 · Oct 14, 2015

It's worth mentioning that only genuine Renault locking tools are what should be used, you can get others from the like of Lazer which are cheaper but they're not very well made and can bend - which is kinda pointless to set the timing with.

Bozmeister · Oct 14, 2015

Clio17271 said:
Hi,
I believe my clio 172 lacks some power. 0-60 in 8 seconds, top speed is about 210km/h (131mph) - and I believe losing 10-15 km/h in top speed means a significant power loss. Overall it doesn't feel powerful, and I have to press the throttle to the point where the induction sound becomes loud, and shift at 3-3.5K rpm to drive with the rest of the traffic.
Decatted, Compression is 180+ at all 4 cylinders, less than 5% leakdown all across, checked cam timing, flushed the engine, replaced - spark plugs, HT leads , ignition coil , injectors , fuel filter , air filter , pre-cat lambda, TDC sensor, cleaned MAP, IAT, Throttle body .
Other weird problems my car has, might be caused by the same problem -
Intermittently very strong engine braking in first gear
Full throttle up to ~1100 revs leading to INSANE vibrations, changed all 4 mounts with no effect, loud vibration noise at this rpm even without touching the throttle.
exhaust sounds like it's misfiring every 2-3 seconds at idle, no change after all the parts I replaced.

I have no good\reliable mechanics in my country, so I want to know what tests should be performed and what other parts could be the cause. My only thoughts are to check air\fuel mixture and fuel pressure.
Thanks for any help ! :smile:

try unplugging the map sensor and go for a drive and see if car runs better, i wouldnt suggest leaving if off perm though

Ex-User (107751) · Oct 14, 2015

Many thanks for the suggestions guys, any further suggestions are very welcome, will update when i finally fix this.
Can i buy the timing tool and plastic caps to check timing myself? Is it as simple as removing the caps and trying the tool, or what does it take?

STEVE.M · Oct 14, 2015

Clio17271 said:
Many thanks for the suggestions guys, any further suggestions are very welcome, will update when i finally fix this.
Can i buy the timing tool and plastic caps to check timing myself? Is it as simple as removing the caps and trying the tool, or what does it take?

Sent you a manual.

Ex-User (107751) · Oct 14, 2015

Thanks,
The manual mentions checking timing only during the replacement of the cambelt, so I'm not sure if I could simply remove the 2 caps and insert the tool, or there might be more into it. Can anyone confirm what's the right procedure?

NorthloopCup · Oct 14, 2015

Clio17271 said:
Thanks,
The manual mentions checking timing only during the replacement of the cambelt, so I'm not sure if I could simply remove the 2 caps and insert the tool, or there might be more into it. Can anyone confirm what's the right procedure?

You need the crank locking pin and the horseshoe to check the timing is correct. The manual you've been sent should cover everything else, but needless to say, if the locking pin goes in and the horseshoe won't, the timing is out. It pretty much is a case of removing the 2 caps as you've already said.

To be 100% certain the crank locking pin is in place (as there's a balance hole in the crank), the engine shouldn't turn in either direction. If the crank will still turn, your in the wrong hole. Difficult to describe it, but you'll just know. So will your missus. Lol

STEVE.M · Oct 14, 2015

NorthloopCup said:
You need the crank locking pin and the horseshoe to check the timing is correct. The manual you've been sent should cover everything else, but needless to say, if the locking pin goes in and the horseshoe won't, the timing is out. It pretty much is a case of removing the 2 caps as you've already said.

To be 100% certain the crank locking pin is in place (as there's a balance hole in the crank), the engine shouldn't turn in either direction. If the crank will still turn, your in the wrong hole. Difficult to describe it, but you'll just know. So will your missus. Lol

I was going to say something,but it`s probably better if I just shut up!

N4TH4N · Oct 14, 2015

STEVE.M said:
I was going to say something,but it`s probably better if I just shut up!

Go on steve your not normally shy!

Dan@SJM · Oct 14, 2015

NorthloopCup said:
You need the crank locking pin and the horseshoe to check the timing is correct. The manual you've been sent should cover everything else, but needless to say, if the locking pin goes in and the horseshoe won't, the timing is out. It pretty much is a case of removing the 2 caps as you've already said.

To be 100% certain the crank locking pin is in place (as there's a balance hole in the crank), the engine shouldn't turn in either direction. If the crank will still turn, your in the wrong hole. Difficult to describe it, but you'll just know. So will your missus. Lol

There's also a little inspection window on the gearbox, there should be a line on the flywheel that lined up with the 0' mark on the gearbox.

STEVE.M · Oct 14, 2015

N4TH4N said:
Go on steve your not normally shy!

Maybe not,but I`m on the wagon tonight,as I have to be up at 5 tomorow morning.

Poopensharten · Oct 14, 2015

I'd also say timing.

Scotland has two main dealers and one of them has said quite exclusively 4 out of 5 cars that come in have the timing retarded/advanced as a result of someone "knowing what they're doing".

STEVE.M · Oct 14, 2015

Danny_172 said:
Scotland has two main dealers .
They are both a bit fishy.One does smack & the other one does crack,

STEVE.M · Oct 14, 2015

I`ve got to wait till December to hear Dave Brock & Steve Hillage thrash out breaks/riffs between them at SBE.

Ex-User (107751) · Oct 18, 2015

If someone can record a second\third gear pull on a straight road from 1000 rpm to rev limiter , even audio only, it would be so much helpful for me, so I can compare. Would love to see the rpm dial but an audio would be very helpful too.

Dan@SJM · Oct 19, 2015

What's that going to tell you?!

Ex-User (107751) · Oct 19, 2015

If i lack power or not. I will record too and compare. Not sure why you asked.

Lack of power, checked almost everything

Honorary Member

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