Let's talk fast road/track cars!

[M19TNR]

Personally I'm thinking, 172/182 stripped etc etc. Standard Fast Road/Track Car!

However! What common engine conversions are there?
What's a realistic BHP figure to talk about from a 172/182?
Is it comparable to the common engine conversions? Or is it a significant power increase with a transplant?
Is there a common turbo engine transplant?

And then, any other car suggestions for a fast road/track car?

Personally I've always been a corsa fan, (3 B's, 4 D's) but recently bought a Clio 3 as a daily. Was going to naturally progress to the VXR, but then though, if I want real power, strip a hot hatch down and generate some power! So naturally....I thought of a Clio2, as always loved the shape, and for me it's the car that comes to mind when someone says hothatch.

So what you recon?
Can anyone answer my million and one questions haha

Cheers in advance guys

 

[djjonnibgood]

I'm no expert, but i supose the obvious route would be to strip the clio and look at a turbo/supercharger conversion, or a 225 conversion...personally, i that think i'm either goning to build a Westfield/Caterham and keep the 182 standard as an everyday car, or buy something daft like a supercharged Jaguar XJR and strip the 182 for the track

 

[Martin_172]

if i was building something serious it would be a ph1 172, 2.0t megane 230 conversion, LSD, remap/exhaust & intercooler for a nice 270bhp and loads of torque, boost from low down unlike the turbo conversions. real drivability!

 

[Chip-mk1]

You arent spoilt for choice like you were with the vauxhalls.
The megane engine people mentions doesnt fit directly onto the 172 gearbox and the megane box isnt a straight swap in either.

Turbo'ing your existing engine is a good option though.

MWMsport have a 258bhp demonstrator on a completely standard bottom end, have a look at their thread here:
http://www.cliosport.net/forum/showthread.php?599541-Soon-to-be-turboed/page8

Power graph halfway down that page.

 

[Martin_172]

ive yet to see a turbocharged F4R that has the drivability of the F4Rt though, if going to all the effort id do it properly and fit one of those, sure there was a guy on here running something crazy like over a bar of boost at 2k rpm!

 

[Chip-mk1]

ive yet to see a turbocharged F4R that has the drivability of the F4Rt though, if going to all the effort id do it properly and fit one of those, sure there was a guy on here running something crazy like over a bar of boost at 2k rpm!

If you werent in scotland i'd say pop down and im sure Jack would take you out for a spin, it feels just like a standard turbo car really, its perfectly pleasant to drive and doesnt feel even vaguely like an aftermarket conversion, I know the sort of cars you are on about, there is some real rubbish out there, but it doesnt have to be that way.

 

[2Damnsly Andy]

Plenty of Quick Track MKI and MKII Golf's.

 

[M19TNR]

Hmmmm seams abit debatable wether the full engine transplant is worth it compared to a turbo addition then.
I mean I'd like the challenge of fitting the megane engine in, but If it means all the hassle to only get negligible gains over a turbo addition then there's no need tbh.

Also to me a MkI/II golf is a work of art and shouldn't be risked crashing really

Thanks for the link to the thread! It's a good project!

With forged internals is it going to be possible to that 275 area? As you say, with a standard bottom end it's hitting 250odd!

Thanks for the help so far!

 

[welshname]

Personally I'd say ph1 172.

But if you're a vauxhall kind of person stick to what you know best perhaps?

Corsa B, C20LET. Cheap to build, cheap to fix.

 

[M19TNR]

I hate the LET crowd!

Been over done and, although their my knowledge area, I just the the stigma that goes with a redtop corsa!

 

[Chip-mk1]

Personally I'd say ph1 172.

But if you're a vauxhall kind of person stick to what you know best perhaps?

Corsa B, C20LET. Cheap to build, cheap to fix.

Expensive to get to go round corners compared to a 172 though, so the grass isnt always greener.

 

[Martin_172]

If you werent in scotland i'd say pop down and im sure Jack would take you out for a spin, it feels just like a standard turbo car really, its perfectly pleasant to drive and doesnt feel even vaguely like an aftermarket conversion, I know the sort of cars you are on about, there is some real rubbish out there, but it doesnt have to be that way.

good to know, too many conversions out there giving a massive lump of power at 3500rpm braking traction, gearboxes, and anything else that gets in its way lol!

 

[welshname]

Fair comment.

Maybe do a twin engined one??? Friend of mine is working on one currently

Take 1 corsa B

Gut it

Cage/Frame

Insert 1 C20LET

Insert a 2nd C20LET behind your seat

Almost finished

 

[M19TNR]

Getting that to handle would be a b**ch though!
But some decent work has gone into that mate!

 

[welshname]

It's going to be running 4WD so shouldn't be too bad. Each engine is running 502bhp.

 

[Chip-mk1]

It's going to be running 4WD so shouldn't be too bad. Each engine is running 502bhp.

Its not going to be 4wd, its going to be 2 lots of 2wd, which is VERY different as there is no mechanical link.

Beardy had been building that car for ever, I hope he gets it finished one day, but I suspect it'll only ever really be any good in a straight line, but thats the main thing he is building it for anyway I believe so im sure he wont care too much about how it would react to a trackday etc.

 

[M19TNR]

I was going to say, how would 4WD work? Haha

So, with forged internals etc and a turbo addition, what are the general feelings towards power?
I'm thinking if 258 is possible with a standard bottom end, 275/280 should be possible?
And would this be using the megane turbo, or would a GT28 be better?

 

[Jaff.]

why not be completley diffrent and fit the LET engine into the clio? best of both worlds... your engine knowladge and the etter handling clio...

 

[M19TNR]

why not be completley diffrent and fit the LET engine into the clio? best of both worlds... your engine knowladge and the etter handling clio...

Hmmmm, that is an option also.
But then there's the custom driveshafts, engine mounts, wheel hubs. Getting the driveshafts to align properly with the engine fitting well.

It's a good idea, which I didn't think of...and I suppose theres draw back with everything, and the gains may be even more.

Another idea I had was the Z16LEH Corsa VXR engine. Relatively new engine and directly in my knowledge area! Also tuneable to easily 250bhp or 300 with more internals work.

 

[Chip-mk1]

I was going to say, how would 4WD work? Haha

So, with forged internals etc and a turbo addition, what are the general feelings towards power?
I'm thinking if 258 is possible with a standard bottom end, 275/280 should be possible?
And would this be using the megane turbo, or would a GT28 be better?

275/280 should be perfectly possible, they just decided to aim it as a 260bhp conversion in the interests of reliability.
They use a hybrid focus rs turbo on that conversion, but you could use a megane one instead if you wished or a gt28 or whatever else really, lots of perfectly valid options.

 

[welshname]

Its not going to be 4wd, its going to be 2 lots of 2wd, which is VERY different as there is no mechanical link.

Beardy had been building that car for ever, I hope he gets it finished one day, but I suspect it'll only ever really be any good in a straight line, but thats the main thing he is building it for anyway I believe so im sure he wont care too much about how it would react to a trackday etc.

Yup it will be straight line only as far as I'm aware. Where are you from then pal? Local to Oldham?

 

[Chip-mk1]

Hmmmm, that is an option also.
But then there's the custom driveshafts, engine mounts, wheel hubs. Getting the driveshafts to align properly with the engine fitting well.

It's a good idea, which I didn't think of...and I suppose theres draw back with everything, and the gains may be even more.

Another idea I had was the Z16LEH Corsa VXR engine. Relatively new engine and directly in my knowledge area! Also tuneable to easily 250bhp or 300 with more internals work.

If you are going to the trouble of an engine conversion from a different make, dont mess around with a cast iron and fairly average engine like a LET IMHO

I'm putting a B18 honda in one of our clios for example, even though I had to go out and buy one rather than use the 400bhp LET I have sat there already built that I could have fitted without having to buy another donor car.
The LET is a good option in novas and corsas (ive had lots of them in various vauxhalls) because it fits easily, but its not a good enough engine to warrant a conversion into a clio.

 

[Martin_172]

i think people get hung up on numbers too much, when running turbo torque 240/250bhp in a mk2 clio would be phenominal on the road! no need for anymore really

 

[welshname]

If you are going to the trouble of an engine conversion from a different make, dont mess around with a cast iron and fairly average engine like a LET IMHO

I'm putting a B18 honda in one of our clios for example, even though I had to go out and buy one rather than use the 400bhp LET I have sat there already built that I could have fitted without having to buy another donor car.
The LET is a good option in novas and corsas (ive had lots of them in various vauxhalls) because it fits easily, but its not a good enough engine to warrant a conversion into a clio.

A b18 turbo would be crazy in a clio.

 

[Chip-mk1]

Yup it will be straight line only as far as I'm aware. Where are you from then pal? Local to Oldham?

I'm from the south, I know beardy because he used to sometime phone me up for advice on the LET engines and because I work for Total Vauxhall and run a vauxhall club, he used to sometimes put his car on our stands.

Must have known him about 10 years now!

I had a LET in my mid engined nova (well actually I had about 3 different evolutions of different LET engines) before I went saab powered, so we've spoke a lot about that side of things too, issues with handling at the rear etc
He's a great guy, but like myself doesnt have enough time for his projects so that corsa is taking forever to build, lol

 

[Chip-mk1]

i think people get hung up on numbers too much, when running turbo torque 240/250bhp in a mk2 clio would be phenominal on the road! no need for anymore really

Agreed, on road tyres and road tarmac you are quite severely grip limited in the first few gears, and already past the national speed limit long before you get into 4th, so it does get to the stage where more becomes less useful.

Ive mapped several 400bhp or so FWD road cars, and the power isnt usable until you are already speeding.

 

[Chip-mk1]

A b18 turbo would be crazy in a clio.

I'm hoping it will be quite useable and not too crazy, its got a LSD, and I will be keeping the torque down and using the revs to allow me to make reasonable power (about 300bhp) without needing to have big grip braking torque (hoping to keep it under 220lbft for most of the rev range if possible)

 

[welshname]

I'm from the south, I know beardy because he used to sometime phone me up for advice on the LET engines and because I work for Total Vauxhall and run a vauxhall club, he used to sometimes put his car on our stands.

Must have known him about 10 years now!

I had a LET in my mid engined nova (well actually I had about 3 different evolutions of different LET engines) before I went saab powered, so we've spoke a lot about that side of things too, issues with handling at the rear etc
He's a great guy, but like myself doesnt have enough time for his projects so that corsa is taking forever to build, lol

Yep, he works as a window cleaner by day and mechanic by night. Mental. Not sure why he doesn't go for it and be a mechanic full time tbh. He's just rebuilt my friends 6n2 GTi (for the 3rd time) but it was off the road ages because he just doesn't have the time.

 

[M19TNR]

Ahhh you work for total vauxhall? One of my mates corsas was just put in there this month! Ryan Hughes Corsa B, beautiful car, and also Mark Baker with a green C20XE Corsa 5dr at PVS, that went in there too a few issues ago

But yeah, I can see where your coming from with the full engine transplant. In being quite short minded with it.

I may stick with a turbo addition to begin with, then if that goes to plan, see how I'd get on with a full conversion.

 

[welshname]

I'm hoping it will be quite useable and not too crazy, its got a LSD, and I will be keeping the torque down and using the revs to allow me to make reasonable power (about 300bhp) without needing to have big grip braking torque (hoping to keep it under 220lbft for most of the rev range if possible)

Yeah I keep checking in on your project thread, it looks like it will be a hoot.

 

[welshname]

I may stick with a turbo addition to begin with, then if that goes to plan, see how I'd get on with a full conversion.

Surely a SC F4R would be more useable and easier to do yourself?

 

[Chip-mk1]

Ahhh you work for total vauxhall? One of my mates corsas was just put in there this month! Ryan Hughes Corsa B, beautiful car, and also Mark Baker with a green C20XE Corsa 5dr at PVS, that went in there too a few issues ago

Yeah the mid engined nova in my avatar here is one of my staff cars for the mag, the other main one being an ITB 20XE corsa B.

But yeah, I can see where your coming from with the full engine transplant. In being quite short minded with it.

I may stick with a turbo addition to begin with, then if that goes to plan, see how I'd get on with a full conversion.

MWM on that car I mentioned lowered the CR by using a 197 head (bigger chambers) but they can do it to a normal 172 head as well by re-engineering the chambers to increase their volume.
Without doing that, you'll run out of ignition advance in the midrange as the compression ratio of the standard engine doesnt lend itself well to boost.

 

[Chip-mk1]

Yep, he works as a window cleaner by day and mechanic by night. Mental. Not sure why he doesn't go for it and be a mechanic full time tbh. He's just rebuilt my friends 6n2 GTi (for the 3rd time) but it was off the road ages because he just doesn't have the time.

I think he is sensible, loads of small garages struggling, better to keep it as a hobby that pays for itself than to put all your eggs in one basket.

 

[Knuckles]

talk to rstuning, paul is a nutter from what ive seen; almost 500bhp r26.r, angry looking evo and a 2 foot flame spitting tigra lol... also steve i think works there too is aiming fo 500bhp in a trophy absolutely mental lol. if anyone can help you, its them

 

[Chip-mk1]

Getting 500bhp out of a F4R shouldnt be hard to any tuner, but its going to be expensive and probably isnt what the OP wants?

Scoff from efi-parts has WAY more than that in his F4R renault 5 for example.

 

[welshname]

Speaking of specky's tigra, didn't Beardy build that engine one of the times?


I still think SCing the F4R is the way to go for useable power.

 

[Chip-mk1]

Speaking of specky's tigra, didn't Beardy build that engine one of the times?

Not that im aware of, I think prior to being at RS Tuning specky has always built his own engines with help from people like andy (who had the purple corsa), and since being at RS Tuning has done so himself or with pauls help.

Specky does all his own work as far as is possible I believe, certainly always used to when I was talking to him reguarly when he first started looking for big power.

And it used to be mapped my track and road, and more recently by RS tuning.

I still think SCing the F4R is the way to go for useable power.

More expensive to buy a charger than a turbo, and you still have all of the same issues with regards to CR and management etc.
And as for usable power, at least on a turbo you can map boost against throttle angle, where as on a supercharger if using the "normal" setup of a throttle body after the the charger its less easy to control boost potentially.

 

[Knuckles]

Getting 500bhp out of a F4R shouldnt be hard to any tuner, but its going to be expensive and probably isnt what the OP wants?

Scoff from efi-parts has WAY more than that in his F4R renault 5 for example.

i was more saying 500bhp through the front wheels of a clio is a bit insane. tbf, anything over 260 in a clio id class as nuts.

and i was using those as examples of how 'capable' they are.

and ive heard of scoffs car. ridiculous thing, its running on a VAG box isnt it?

 

[Jaff.]

i was more saying 500bhp through the front wheels of a clio is a bit insane. tbf, anything over 260 in a clio id class as nuts.

and i was using those as examples of how 'capable' they are.

and ive heard of scoffs car. ridiculous thing, its running on a VAG box isnt it?

scoffs car is in this months pfc.750+ bhp in his 5! unreal!

yes he is running a vag box he is also planning onmaking this conversion available to clio owners. updates soon

 

[Chip-mk1]

I think you need to change that "soon" to "eventually" as people have been saying for f**king ages now that its going to be soon, lol