Making a 200 BHP clio?

[...]

used to run the same theory on zetecs , bottom end would withstand an 8k rev limit with bolts as standard , forged bottom end even brought in from the states was big money , short engine from ford £450 ..... run a standard bottom with bolts and pocked pistons and hey presto with a decent top end setup 230/240bhp no issues .

we ran a season with an 8.5k limit just to see and it was fine but you start to play with fire .

 

[Chip-mk1]

used to run the same theory on zetecs , bottom end would withstand an 8k rev limit with bolts as standard , forged bottom end even brought in from the states was big money , short engine from ford £450 ..... run a standard bottom with bolts and pocked pistons and hey presto with a decent top end setup 230/240bhp no issues .

we ran a season with an 8.5k limit just to see and it was fine but you start to play with fire .

Yeah, as said already, its a case of horses for courses.

Race cars actually dont see many hours of use for things to fatigue in compared to some trackday cars as well, although it depends on the series etc.

Mind you losing a race to a failed standard part could cost you points as well as pounds, so depends how serious you are how much insurance its worth buying in uprated parts.

 

[Silent_Scone]

It is indeeeed. Nothing lasts forever anyway

 

[...]

one of the zetecs was used for trackdays and did a shed load of miles , twas the one used all over europe etc .....

stood up well

 

[Chip-mk1]

one of the zetecs was used for trackdays and did a shed load of miles , twas the one used all over europe etc .....

stood up well

Ive no knowledge of the zetec pistons casting quality so not sure if that is unusual or not.

For a vauxhall XE engine for example you wouldnt even consider replacing the pistons unless you specifically wanted the CR, they are pressure cast as standard on the early ones so pretty much as good as it gets.

 

[04kendalld]

Well then get spending!

Ive got a turbo a one buried amongst our N/A ones, and its pretty epic in a straight line, definitely the way to go if that is what interests you. But expect a fairly hefty bill sadly!

thi king of saving for a turo kit

what sort of price am i looking at 3k from ktec or is there a cheaper place?

 

[Chip-mk1]

DIY is the cheapest way, look out for parts secondhand etc.

Mine is an ex Mwm car, it's about 4k for one of their drive in drive out conversions fully fitted and mapped etc.

 

[Chapppers11]

Don't they already make a 200 bhp clio? :rasp:

 

[Chip-mk1]

Don't they already make a 200 bhp clio? :rasp:

No but they do make one with 200 badges on it, lol

 

[Cup_Phil]

In typical Cliosport form - lots of bickering and differing opinions LOL

Let me reply as someone who has done what you want.
Firstly get the "I need 200bhp" out of your head - what does it matter if you get 190 or 196 or 200 - if it's faster and the power is mid-range, useable and makes the car quicker - then the bhp figure isn't really important - unless your just bragging in the pub

Secondly...

possible, but on the stock pistons/stock comp ratio a REAL 200bhp i don't think is possible (on commercial fuel), stick it on person x's dyno and it'll do it, real world no

injectors will flow enough for over 200 already, pointless changing them at this level.
cat isn't really a restriction, maybe a tiny advantage to removing it but not much.
Cams are worthwhile but as above, on their own won't get you to 200 unless there's something unusual with your engine
Remap.....incidental really, you map to suit the mods and get the most from them.

Give yourself a realistic target of 190ish and you won't be disappointed

These guys - nail on the head

If you fit cams and a remap, exhaust, filter etc... you'll get about 190bhp for about £2k
If you fit Throttle Bodies, remap, exhaust filter etc... you'll get about 190bhp for about £3k but with an insane noise

I did the latter and go the bodies

If you fit bodies & cams, remap, exhaust, filter etc.. you'll get about 205bhp - but for about £4k

Incidentally with ITBs, 182 manifold, sports cat, omex 600, remap, etc... I got 194bhp. That would be over 200bhp on some rollers - but that's a REAL figure and it's enough to light up a tyre coming out of most corners so it's plenty for me. When you start getting over 190bhp the traction and handling is more of an issue than pushing for another 10bhp lol

HTH

 

[Chip-mk1]

Good summary from an N/A perspective Phil.

But traction wise if its straight lines he is after, even 250bhp+ wont be a problem in anything other than 1st gear if he uses decent tyres, my turbo clio is over that and has no traction problems in a straight line.

 

[04kendalld]

DIY is the cheapest way, look out for parts secondhand etc.

Mine is an ex Mwm car, it's about 4k for one of their drive in drive out conversions fully fitted and mapped etc.

how do i know what parts to look for any help?

 

[Chapppers11]

No but they do make one with 200 badges on it, lol

Mine doesn't have any badges saying 200 on it..

197bhp isn't too bad for a 200bhp car!

 

[Chip-mk1]

how do i know what parts to look for any help?

Have a look at the build thread for my car for inspiration mate:

http://www.cliosport.net/forum/showthread.php?599541-Soon-to-be-turboed



Basically if you want say 220bhp or so, you can do it with a low pressure conversion which will mean you dont need to open the engine up, you just bolt bits on the outside, fit new management, have it mapped and away you go.

If you want more power you need to drop the compression ratio to allow you to reliably run more boost.
To drop the compression you either need more space in the pistons (buy forged low comp pistons) or you need more space above the pistons. If you want to do it on the standard bottom end (like mine is) then you have 3 options for getting more space above the pistons:
Thicker head gasket (bit of a bodge, I would avoid)
Bolt on a 197 head (how mine is done)
Machine a 172 head to drop the CR (simplest reliable way as you can still run 172 inlet etc then)



In terms of the external parts, this should cover most of what you will need although Im sure Ive missed a few things typing it out quickly:
Bigger injectors (megane turbo are a straight fit so a popular choice)
Exhaust manifold (megane one fits) and new exhaust gasket
Turbo (mine is a focus RS, but megane or lots of others are options too)
Downpipe (any good exhaust fab place can do this)
Intercooler (mine is a focus ST one, or you can get a custom one)
Pipework for the air to go down from turbo to intercooler and intercooler to inlet
Air filter and pipework from filter to turbo
Oil feed and return for the turbo (and optionally water cooling pipework)
Either aftermarket ECU or a different map sensor for the standard ecu (I would strongly recommend aftermarket personally)
Mapping for the ECU you end up with
Wiring harness for the ECU if you do go aftermarket
Uprated fuel pump is a good idea
You will probably need a new (uprated if going high boost) clutch at some point soon after the conversion so do it before so its there ready
Suitable exhaust if you dont have one already (2.5" is a good size)
Dump valve would be advisable if going high boost (you can get recirc ones if you want to minimise the awful noises)


You could do it low pressure first to keep it simple and avoid opening the engine up, and then when you next need a cambelt doing anyway use that as the time to decompress it. Bear in mind that will mean paying for mapping twice though.

 

[04kendalld]

Have a look at the build thread for my car for inspiration mate:

http://www.cliosport.net/forum/showthread.php?599541-Soon-to-be-turboed



Basically if you want say 220bhp or so, you can do it with a low pressure conversion which will mean you dont need to open the engine up, you just bolt bits on the outside, fit new management, have it mapped and away you go.

If you want more power you need to drop the compression ratio to allow you to reliably run more boost.
To drop the compression you either need more space in the pistons (buy forged low comp pistons) or you need more space above the pistons. If you want to do it on the standard bottom end (like mine is) then you have 3 options for getting more space above the pistons:
Thicker head gasket (bit of a bodge, I would avoid)
Bolt on a 197 head (how mine is done)
Machine a 172 head to drop the CR (simplest reliable way as you can still run 172 inlet etc then)



In terms of the external parts, this should cover most of what you will need although Im sure Ive missed a few things typing it out quickly:
Bigger injectors (megane turbo are a straight fit so a popular choice)
Exhaust manifold (megane one fits) and new exhaust gasket
Turbo (mine is a focus RS, but megane or lots of others are options too)
Downpipe (any good exhaust fab place can do this)
Intercooler (mine is a focus ST one, or you can get a custom one)
Pipework for the air to go down from turbo to intercooler and intercooler to inlet
Air filter and pipework from filter to turbo
Oil feed and return for the turbo (and optionally water cooling pipework)
Either aftermarket ECU or a different map sensor for the standard ecu (I would strongly recommend aftermarket personally)
Mapping for the ECU you end up with
Wiring harness for the ECU if you do go aftermarket
Uprated fuel pump is a good idea
You will probably need a new (uprated if going high boost) clutch at some point soon after the conversion so do it before so its there ready
Suitable exhaust if you dont have one already (2.5" is a good size)
Dump valve would be advisable if going high boost (you can get recirc ones if you want to minimise the awful noises)


You could do it low pressure first to keep it simple and avoid opening the engine up, and then when you next need a cambelt doing anyway use that as the time to decompress it. Bear in mind that will mean paying for mapping twice though.

thank you for all the help, so am i right in thinking that as long as i dont go ott with the boost i can stay using stock internals?

 

[Chip-mk1]

thank you for all the help, so am i right in thinking that as long as i dont go ott with the boost i can stay using stock internals?

Here is the graph from mine when me and Mike first Mapped it:

When he built Jacks car (now mine) in the first place as a demonstrator Mike deliberately stuck with a really tired old bottom end that he had when he did the conversion as he wanted to be able to proove that the standard internals were good for it. One of the bores actually has a fairly significant visible score down it, but Mikes logic was that if it prooved reliable on a bad example of a bottom end like mine, it would be a good test for a less tired one like most people have.

Had done over 100K when the conversion was done, has done another 9K or so since now, including use on track, rings are really starting to be past their best now as its breathing quite heavy, but its still going strong and in fact Im running more boost now than I was when I did the initial mapping from that graph.

Bear in mind though that the standard pistons are quite poor production standards, so you might get unlucky and have one with an imperfection in the wrong place, its a little bit of a lottery with these engines as mentioned in the thread already, but if you keep the compression quite low like mine the peak cylinder pressures arent actually any higher than on the standard engine I would wager despite the higher power output so I dont think the pistons are as likely to fail on a turbo conversion like mine as they are on an ITB conversion IF (and its a big IF!) its mapped appropriately, as the turbo means you dont have to push the boundaries on the map looking for every last BHP like you tend to be doing on an ITB car.

 

[Cup_Phil]

Good summary from an N/A perspective Phil.

But traction wise if its straight lines he is after, even 250bhp+ wont be a problem in anything other than 1st gear if he uses decent tyres, my turbo clio is over that and has no traction problems in a straight line.

Yeah sorry I had presumed N/A for some reason

If you want power cheaply - then charger/turbo is the way to go - and like Chip says straight line traction is fine.
It depends on your definition of "faster" - there's a big difference between going quick in a straight line and being quick on a circuit

 

[04kendalld]

thanks for all your help mate.

sorry for the questions.

so how would i know what parts to buy?

 

[Chip-mk1]

TBH if its the first time you have done anything like this to any car (I know you are obviously new to clios but dont know your background before that) I'd say your best bet was to save up and get someone like MWM to do the whole thing for you, it doesnt need much to go wrong to make a cheap DIY build end up a lot dearer than a proper conversion.

 

[04kendalld]

so what would be the ball park figure for the conversion?

 

[Chip-mk1]

Its about 4K all in fitted and mapped etc IIRC mate.

TBH, its a ludicrous amount of money to spend on an engine for a 1-2K car, but it is epic fun at the end of it, lol


Financially though, starting with a turbo car instead would make far more sense for going fast as already mentioned, so you just need to decide if you love your clio enough to totally waste a load of money on it or not.

Im not a good person to advise in that respect, I spent best part of 15K building an engine for a vauxhall nova once, lol

 

[Ryanj]

Bucket mod.

 

[04kendalld]

Its about 4K all in fitted and mapped etc IIRC mate.

TBH, its a ludicrous amount of money to spend on an engine for a 1-2K car, but it is epic fun at the end of it, lol


Financially though, starting with a turbo car instead would make far more sense for going fast as already mentioned, so you just need to decide if you love your clio enough to totally waste a load of money on it or not.

Im not a good person to advise in that respect, I spent best part of 15K building an engine for a vauxhall nova once, lol

i was thinking today what cars are turbo that a 19 year old could get insured on lol that can be increased boosted etc

 

[Chip-mk1]

If you are 19 your best bet would be to be patient and save till you are 21 and in the mean time give the clio a good steering and suspension service and do a couple of trackdays to really learn how to drive it I reckon.

But thats assuming you are more patient at 19 than I was, lol

 

[Russ_16v]

I dare say insuring a factory turbocharged car would be cheaper than insuring a turbocharged Clio, especially at your age mate

 

[04kendalld]

what about supercharging clio ?

does it give good gains?
cheaper than turbo?

 

[Chip-mk1]

what about supercharging clio ?

does it give good gains?

Yes it can give good gains.

cheaper than turbo?

More expensive generally speaking I would say, especially over a period of time as superchargers (well the rotrex ones people tend to use on clios) are dearer at rebuild time than a turbo.


Of the two I think the turbo makes more sense, but both work really really well.

These engines just LOVE boost.

 

[Cup_Phil]

I've always preferred the gradual boost of a charger - seems a bit less harsh on the engine

 

[Chip-mk1]

I've always preferred the gradual boost of a charger - seems a bit less harsh on the engine

To be fair you can map a turbo in a similar way, they dont have to have the monster midrange boost that most do, and you could argue that the more instantaneous delivery at high rpm when you go from closed throttle to open on the supercharger (as there is no spool time) is actually more aggressive.

So I think its a bit 6 of one and half a dozen of the other in that respect.


One thing I do prefer about the supercharger conversions is not having all that extra heat behind the engine though, especially considering the driveshaft centre bearing and brake lines are both near there