Middle of timing belt change, need advice.

[Happy Camper]

Hi all,
First post here and I have to say thank you too all who spend time sharing their knowledge. I have learnt a wealth of information here concerning my newest vehicle a 2002 sport 172, iceberg silver but i think i have been lead astray by my local Renault dealer service center. I'm hoping one of you can let me know if the following is correct or if I'm wrong?

My sport needed a timing belt change soon after i bought it. Please hear me out before you respond with "no another timing belt blunder". Thanks to the wonderful descriptions from many dedicated Renault owners my timing belt change is going along well. Slow, I'm taking my time, but well. The car has had a timing belt change before so this will be its second. It has pen marks on the cam pulley's that correspond with marks on the head, I'm guessing from the first timing belt change. The TDC pin clicked into place and I have checked the timing mark on the flywheel is in line with the gearbox casing mark. Unfortunately the horseshoe camshaft setting tool doesn't quite fit. The grooves on the ends of the camshaft are below the center line in the head casing so with all the other marks lining up the only thing I can think is that the timing is slightly off. Would that be a correct assumption? I havent loosened anything to do with the timing belt yet.

The main issue I have however is that I think the tools my local Renault dealer has sold me may not quite be right. I asked for the three tools I believe I need to do the job properly. TDC crank locking pin, cam setting tool (horseshoe) and the pulley locking tool. I specifically asked for genuine Renault tools and parts for the job. The parts they supplied are all genuine Renault, the tools aren't. I queried it and was told it was all they could provide. "Its the same kit we use" and they showed me their used kit. Problem is the kit doesnt seem to be the correct kit, or I should say part of the kit seems correct, part is wrong. Link to the kit they sold me Here is the url if the link doesnt work http://content.yudu.com/Library/A1y1...sources/70.htm

ET299
Cam timing tool, Yes
TDC/crank pin, Yes
extra cam locking pin with thread, not needed for sport
pulley locking tool, yes it has one but not the correct one for the sport.

I can see the correct pulley locking tool on the page of the catalog ET1150A, is that correct?

Have they sold me ET299 because thats the only way to get the cam timing tool and TDC pin and havent sold me the correct pulley locking tool as an extra because they dont use it for timing belts? Does it sound like they just do it the fast but not as accurate way, not releasing the cam pulley's? I have read on this forum that it is thought some Renault service centers do it that faster way, but that if you want it spot on the pulley locking tool is needed and the pulleys loosened to equilize the tension in the belt. Is that right?

I went to lock the pulleys and realized it wasn't the right one. I didnt look at it properly before i started, but I havent undone anything important at this point with the timing belt, I have removed the aux belt.

Sorry i know this is long I just thought its faster if you know some background to my question. Thanks for hanging in there.

Is my next plan of attack to go back and slap them with a cold salmon then ask to purchase the correct pulley locking tool, ET1150A?

Once i have it i still have to deal with the issue of my horseshoe not fitting when everything else is lined up. Is it best to rectify this before removing the belt? I would prefer to.
If so do I lock the cams with the pulley tool
Release one cam nut (exhaust?)
Release the matching cog on the pulley tool
Rotate the cam a little till the horseshoe fits, then tighten the cog on the pulley tool back up, locking the cams
release the other cam pulley nut so both are just loose enough and
continue with the belt change, checking of timing and replacement of the new aux belt?

I would be most grateful if anyone can throw some light my way?
Both myself and the sport Thank you.

 

[Happy Camper]

Quick amendment.

The horseshoe will go in with a tiny bit of wiggling so I think I'm right in saying I just need to change the tool, or buy the correct pulley locking tool and then continue with the normal timing belt change. Correcting the timing a little should be done after the timing belt is changed?
Thanks

 

[Ianboom]

Somebody will be along soon about the tools, but it sounds like the can timing is out.
With the crankshaft locked the horseshoe tool should fit. Took me a while to get my head around it, but the cam wheels and crank wheel don't line up with any marks like some cams, with the belt and tensioner fitted, and the crank locked the horseshoe fits, if not, one of the cam pulleys or possibly both need loosening, the tool fitting and then the pulleys tightening!
Ian.

 

[MicKPM]

okay, the timing tool set they've sold you as genuine Renault tooling is 100% NOT genuine Renault tooling. Renault tools all have an "MOT-XXXX" prefix stamped in to them and are always of a hardened steel construction rather than the mild steel rubbish in the links above. Tool numbers have been covered on here to death and can be found by searching if you so desired. The correct pulley locking tool on that link would be ET1150A but again this isn't a genuine tool.

Now going to the actual setting of the timing: Firstly ignore any paint/tipex/pen marks from previous attempts as they will be wrong. You must release the pulley bolt/nut tension to be able to equalise the new belt correctly. So with that in mind, If (with the crank locked at the correct point) the camshaft setting tool needs any kind of fiddling or effort to force it in the set points then the timing is wrong and the cam positions need adjusting. I always insert the tool fully in to the exhaust cam notch first and then see if it slips in to the inlet cam notch before pulling out and doing it in reverse. If you can do this with ease in both cases and the setting tool can slide effortlessly whilst sat in the notches then the timing is acceptable. Rotate the engine by hand x14 - x20 times, lock the crank, make note of the tensioner set point to be sure it's not moved and carry out the test again. If it's all good and you can still slide the setting bar you can proceed to bolt it back together again.

 

[Happy Camper]

I realized they were not the genuine tools. I was pretty disapointed when they told me they couldnt supply the genuine tools. They are the main Renault dealer in our city and they dont even use the genuine tools. What is it with Renault?
Seems like I'm doing the right things so far. I'll sort out the Pulley locking tool and keep going. I have worked on many cars before so I'm not worried about following instructions and I can make a mental picture of the process, just want to make sure the special tools are up to the job and that my technique I'm following is correct. Thanks for the extra explanation I'll finish it off this week and post back with the results.

 

[davo172]

I really cannot understand why people try and do this themselves by buying all the parts and locking tools for a bit more money just get it done by someone who knows what they are doin ! With the cost v risk of f**king it up not worth it imo .

 

[Ianboom]

I really cannot understand why people try and do this themselves by buying all the parts and locking tools for a bit more money just get it done by someone who knows what they are doin ! With the cost v risk of f**king it up not worth it imo .

It does save a couple of hundred quid, but I want to do it for the satisfaction of being to be able to do it myself! I've taught myself/been shown how to do lots of things over the last 40 years from plumbing to car repair and to be honest, I enjoy doing it myself.

 

[Happy Camper]

My local Renault dealership did the right thing and lent me the correct pulley locking tool for the night as it was going to take a couple of days to get a new one in. The tool they lent me was the genuine Renault one and it did a great job of locking the cams. The non genuine horseshoe cam timing tool was fine as its a timing tool not a locking tool. My understanding from research and now practice is that as long as the cams are locked tightly with the pulley locking tool the horseshoe timing tool should not be under pressure when slacking off the pulleys and therefore shouldn't bend. I would purchase the genuine Renault one if I could have as its always better to be on the safe side but the non genuine ones do work if you use them properly. The pulley locking tool is the one that needs to be strong and tightened up, tight.

I really cant understand why people feel it necessary to comment negatively when others want to get their hands dirty? The person who "knows what they are doing" had to start somewhere too and from what I have read many of the service centers aren't that reliable anyway. Yes in some countries there are fantastic specialists, many of them are very active here and I thank them for the assistance. If I lived close to any of them I may have considered having them do the timing belt as my time is limited but at the end of the day its my car and I like taking responsibility for it. I own my own business so taking calculated risks is all in a days work. I'm active on forums that deal with my industry, helping others take the plunge into things they aren't familiar with.

I started on a Daihatsu van that cost me $300. It had smashed valves and I rebuilt it using information from forums just like this one. Since then I have been able to move on to other more complex motors, each time benefiting from the technical knowledge given out freely on forums. We all have to do things for the first time and thanks to what I have learned over the years I have been able to help others.

Started the sport up this morning and after a little cough and splutter (that had me pissing my pants) its purring like a kitten. When I removed the wheels last week I found one of the inner rubber boots had gone on the drive shaft, bathing the Aux belt in oil. This must have been the cause of the squeaking I was getting on start up as it has now gone.

All in all it took far longer than expected, far, far longer. However I did a lot more than just the timing/aux belt as I found other things along the way that needed attention. I have totaled these up and if I had them all repaired by my local Renault dealership It would have been around AUS$3500+, so in total I think I have saved myself around $2000. I'm pretty happy with that and now have the tools and knowledge I need if something else needs attention.

Some of the links that helped me
http://www.cliosport.net/forum/showthread.php?488191-Clio-182-Timing-Belt
http://www.cliosport.net/forum/showthread.php?557959-Cam-belt-tools
http://www.cliosport.net/forum/show...change-guide&highlight=clio+3286a+timing+belt
http://www.cliosport.net/forum/show...Ph2-cambelt-fail-project-intro-(lots-of-pics)
And the best for last
http://www.cliosport.net/forum/showthread.php?437872-Cambelt-Auxbelt-Dephaser-Pulley-Guide

I read many more threads to get my head around it but these were the most insightful. For me the important thing is being able to go through the whole procedure in my head first. If I cant do that it means there are things I dont know or understand so more research is needed. Once I can piece it all together in my head I should be able to do it in practice.

Thanks to all and happy Porsche hunting!

 

[Dan@SJM]

A bit of advice, you need to replace the aux kit when doing the timing belt. These are renowned for throwing the aux belt into the timing belt if neglected.

 

[Happy Camper]

Great point Dan, I did a full aux kit at the same time.
As a cliosport trader can you answer the following questions as I'm still unsure?
1. Aux belt kit should always be done when timing belt is due?
Not that unsure about this one, I believe they should be done at the same time due to the design of the engine?
2. Aux belt should be changed in between timing belt and aux kit changes?
This one seems to have differing opinions.
Thanks

 

[AlexW]

Aux belt should be changed at the timing belt really, as the aux belt is 36k or 3 years, so even if it had done few miles, you'd be changing the aux belt kit a year later. Otherwise mileage will cause them to be done at the same time. Plus once you've compressed the tensioner and had the aux belt off, you should replace it.

As I said above, Aux belt is 36k or 3 years, so with the timing belt being 72k or 5 years, you should be changing the aux belt inbetween too.

 

[Dan@SJM]

As above

 

[Dan@SJM]

Great point Dan, I did a full aux kit at the same time.
As a cliosport trader can you answer the following questions as I'm still unsure?
1. Aux belt kit should always be done when timing belt is due?
Not that unsure about this one, I believe they should be done at the same time due to the design of the engine?
2. Aux belt should be changed in between timing belt and aux kit changes?
This one seems to have differing opinions.
Thanks

Line 10 up that need changing, get me a garage for a week and between you cover my flight cost and accomodation and it'll still work out cheaper

 

[Happy Camper]

Thanks everybody, aux belt in 36k it is. Put a good few Km's on her over the last week or two and all is well, much better in fact. Now have new disks and redstuff pads, which in our climate in Australia seem really good, sportlines and cup dampers among other things. I'm starting to settle in to the high seating position and am already faster up my favorite twisty roads than I have been in my turbo charade. (this one is 10 mins away from my house https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T9QabBmtve8)

On another related point.
I only owned my Clio for about 3 weeks before I did the timing belt change and had found 0-5000rpm to be quite lacking in torque. I have a Mazda SP23 which is ok down low and a Daihatsu charade G11 with a CB80 (3 cylinder, 993cc), larger turbo etc that has no low end but screams when on boost (approx 150hp, 750kg), and have driven many different combinations of vehicles. I was expecting a bit more from the Clio, however it did have a really large kick at the 5000ish rpm which I have read most have, some dont. The interesting thing is when I did the timing belt the timing was out a little, now its corrected (or at least I think it is as I followed all procedures) there is far more power and torque below 5000 and the kick has been ironed out a little. Its not that the top end is not as strong but rather the bottom end of the rev range is more punchy. I'm guessing this is due to the timing being closer to perfect? If so does that mean clio's that do have a more pronounced kick are slightly out of time? Has anyone experienced this on a set of rollers?

 

[Dan@SJM]

I've had a few in that feel almost like vtec lol. All because the timing was out. The 5k kick is due to the factory fuelling not being anywhere close to the optimum. And 5k is then where the ecu gives it the fuel it wants!

 

[Happy Camper]

I had read somewhere that the 5k kick was from fueling rather than cam like so many believe (and like the case with vtec), so adding poor timing explains it, thanks Dan. Mine did feel like vtec, nowhere near as violent as my charade boosting, which even only on 18psi is wheel spin city, but it was still far more than any other non vtec, non turbo car i have driven. Now it just has a lovely surge all the way gaining more shove as it passes 5200. I'm liking my little Clio, rare around these parts too, so even though its cheap its a little bit special.

 

[warwickstingray]

My standard 172 cup has no Kick just that you notice it's pulling better from 5k. Has a love affair with the limiter that requires a constant eye on the rev counter. Usual N/A power band. Respectable, useable but not quick in the lower half of the rev range. Reminded of that by a re-mapped 160 TDI Ibiza (plenty of smoke!) that left me standing off a mini roundabout on a national speed limit road and I had no answer until the power came in 2nd which is the speed limit anyway. It's not practical to drive round in 1st just in case