My Clio tce

[Chip-mk1]

In traffic the oil wont ever get too hot, so no need for a fan

All the fan on the oil cooler will do while sat in traffic is overcool your oil (if you dont have a thermostat) or nothing (if you do have a thermostat), and then when you are on the move driving hard enough to need the oil cooler working it will just be a restriction having the fan in the way.

Dont fit it.

 

[Westytce]

Nice work.
love your collection of 'other toys' also haha!!

In traffic the oil wont ever get too hot, so no need for a fan

All the fan on the oil cooler will do while sat in traffic is overcool your oil (if you dont have a thermostat) or nothing (if you do have a thermostat), and then when you are on the move driving hard enough to need the oil cooler working it will just be a restriction having the fan in the way.

Dont fit it.

Thanks for the info chip, the 13row cooler is bigger than the standard water cooled oil cooler, that is on the car.

my thoughts were that if the water is not used for cooling the oil in the water cooled oil cooler, this is a good thing, as the water can be cooler as not heat transfer from oil to water.

The mocal oil cooler is front mounted and not cooled by the thermostate regulated water, it may prove an issue in traffic is what I thought, so a fan was the solution to this. You think otherwise and this to be a bad thing to fit then? Are you suggesting I add in a thermostat to work fan?

the water can cool the oil and it's temp is regulated by the thermostate, but I'm removing this process so need a control mech to stop temp,getting to hot... Please do correct me if needed

Why do you think it will be a restriction on the move if the fan is behind the cooler?

As always interested to know more info

 

[Dan@SJM]

Is the oil cooler thermostaically controlled? Thats all you need imo, tbh I can't see it getting too hot in traffic anyway. They do alot of R+D with cooling and everything is so effcient that you won't run into problems.

Water is better at heat transfer than air, which is why alot of cars run laminover style coolers, as its more effecient at maintaining a constant temperature.

 

[Chip-mk1]

Thanks for the info chip, the 13row cooler is bigger than the standard water cooled oil cooler, that is on the car.

Sounds more than adequete, make sure it has a thermostat on it for in the winter though.

my thoughts were that if the water is not used for cooling the oil in the water cooled oil cooler, this is a good thing, as the water can be cooler as not heat transfer from oil to water.

Yes it will help lower your water temps by not needing it to cool oil.

The mocal oil cooler is front mounted and not cooled by the thermostate regulated water, it may prove an issue in traffic is what I thought, so a fan was the solution to this. You think otherwise and this to be a bad thing to fit then? Are you suggesting I add in a thermostat to work fan?

I am suggesting a thermostat on the oil, so that when the oil is cold (ie under 100 degrees) it doesnt enter the cooler.

the water can cool the oil and it's temp is regulated by the thermostate, but I'm removing this process so need a control mech to stop temp,getting to hot... Please do correct me if needed

Yes you need something to stop the oil getting too hot now you have binned the modine, but you also need to stop the oil getting too cold, thats very bad also.

Why do you think it will be a restriction on the move if the fan is behind the cooler?

Because if air cant get out the back of the cooler freely it wont enter the cooler as freely either.
The fan isnt going to do anything useful so no point having it there and risk it obstructing flow not to mention adding weight right where you dont want it outside of the wheelbase.

 

[Chip-mk1]

Is the oil cooler thermostaically controlled? Thats all you need imo, tbh I can't see it getting too hot in traffic anyway. They do alot of R+D with cooling and everything is so effcient that you won't run into problems.

Water is better at heat transfer than air, which is why alot of cars run laminover style coolers, as its more effecient at maintaining a constant temperature.

I agree with all the above, but IF he is having issues with not being able to control the water temps then removing the oil cooling requirement on the water is one way to improve things (although better radiator would probably help more)

 

[Dan@SJM]

Totally agree. Not trying top put westy down here, but, it seems like he is trying to sort problems that havent become apparent. IMO, Build it, Drive it, see where needs improving and work on thjose area's rather than doing alot of spending on area's where you could be wasting money imo.

 

[Chip-mk1]

Totally agree. Not trying top put westy down here, but, it seems like he is trying to sort problems that havent become apparent. IMO, Build it, Drive it, see where needs improving and work on thjose area's rather than doing alot of spending on area's where you could be wasting money imo.

Agreed, and not just wasting money, but potentially making the car "worse" by doing so, in tersm of adding weight and potentially adding more points of failure (cooler hit by stone, pipes split etc)

 

[Westytce]

Totally agree. Not trying top put westy down here, but, it seems like he is trying to sort problems that havent become apparent. IMO, Build it, Drive it, see where needs improving and work on thjose area's rather than doing alot of spending on area's where you could be wasting money imo.

Hay dan, the water does get rather hot!! I think a thermostatic end plate is best option then, I'm a bit miffed to why I didn't order a thermo plate in the first place tbh, I think I'll double check the invoice....

New red is a good idea or a better one any suggestions on rad... Thermo end plate just ordered it's 82 degs I'm told... :rasp:

 

[Chip-mk1]

How how was the water getting?

I'd only start panicking if its heading above the 105 or so region as a general rule of thumb (some standard cars, like focus RS for example run slightly hotter than that though so its not a hard and fast rule)

 

[Dan@SJM]

See how hot its getting first, theres several tricks to getting a car to run cooler, even by additives. Renault run these cars in the middle east as part of their testing (IIRC) so a mild british summer with traffic won't really bother it I expect Run an RSTuner with data logginf when your in traffic in summer and see how its coping, that and see how its coping when on track. this will give much more useful data than guess work and as chip said adding potntial points of failure.

 

[Westytce]

How how was the water getting?

I'd only start panicking if its heading above the 105 or so region as a general rule of thumb (some standard cars, like focus RS for example run slightly hotter than that though so its not a hard and fast rule)

Vry hot, cAnt touch head tank hot.... and level seemed to have risen more than usual... And to be fair on 86k a new rad isn't a bad little treat for the car...

 

[Dan@SJM]

Tbh, thats normal for any car mate. Water runs at circa 90*c. Depending on particular thermostat etc.

 

[Chip-mk1]

Vry hot, cAnt touch head tank hot....

So its over 80 degrees then based on your scientific test, lol

and level seemed to have risen more than usual...

That might be due to localised boiling rather than a general increase in temp, its possible you need to add a swirl pot to allow the gas back to the header tank, or that there are other issues.

Guessing you wont know what I mean, so have included a link

http://www.demon-tweeks.co.uk/Produ...gle&utm_medium=Base&utm_campaign=Header Tanks

 

[Dan@SJM]

So its over 80 degrees then based on your scientific test, lol

Not a scientific experiment, as he has to have done it twice with out changing any variables

 

[Chip-mk1]

Not a scientific experiment, as he has to have done it twice with out changing any variables

I was more mocking the accuracy of the actual temp measurement, ie by touching it not by just plugging an ODB reader in and seeing what the temp is, lol

 

[Dan@SJM]

Although, he could put us both to shame and say he has touched it twice with the same variables, in which it was scientific. lol. But yes, OBD data would be more useful.

 

[Westytce]

So its over 80 degrees then based on your scientific test, lol




That might be due to localised boiling rather than a general increase in temp, its possible you need to add a swirl pot to allow the gas back to the header tank, or that there are other issues.

Guessing you wont know what I mean, so have included a link

http://www.demon-tweeks.co.uk/Produ...gle&utm_medium=Base&utm_campaign=Header Tanks

No scientific test done yet, this weekend I'm sure well do it,

Other issue meaning the head gasket?!?

 

[Westytce]

Although, he could put us both to shame and say he has touched it twice with the same variables, in which it was scientific. lol. But yes, OBD data would be more useful.

Do your White coats have sleeves that wrap around and do up together.....

A temp test needs to be done to be fair. A swirl pot not a bad thing either though.

 

[Dan@SJM]

No scientific test done yet, this weekend I'm sure well do it,

Other issue meaning the head gasket?!?

Other issues, could be poor circulation, water pump, blocked rad, etc etc.

 

[Westytce]

Maybe changing the coolant this weekend should be on the to do list also then.

Benefits of new or improved water pump?

 

[Dan@SJM]

Have a look into water wetter too.

 

[Chip-mk1]

Maybe changing the coolant this weekend should be on the to do list also then.

Benefits of new or improved water pump?

No benefits at all unless yours is failing to push water around the engine properly really, you are looking in the wrong places for the problems, its more likely you will gain benefit for example from stripping the block down and seeing if there are any restrictive pathways preventing water from getting to certain parts of the block and machining those to allow better cirulation for example.

 

[Chip-mk1]

Have a look into water wetter too.

+1

Epic stuff!

 

[Westytce]

No benefits at all unless yours is failing to push water around the engine properly really, you are looking in the wrong places for the problems, its more likely you will gain benefit for example from stripping the block down and seeing if there are any restrictive pathways preventing water from getting to certain parts of the block and machining those to allow better cirulation for example.

Ok this is good stuff thanks chip, we do know the hg is seeping very slightly so maybe when I get the second hand engine for Xmas the water ways should be done.

On that point guys when I get this second hand engine what would you suggest is done with it to improve things? ( the plan is to use the engine to put forged parts in polish inlet manifold etc, and straight swop.)

The water ways is a good thing to look at improving.

 

[Westytce]

+1

Epic stuff!

Worth it then? I heard it was all non sense

 

[Chip-mk1]

Definately worth it mate, Ive no idea who you heard from that it was nonsense, but a large percentage of circuit racers use it and for good reason.

 

[Westytce]

Definately worth it mate, Ive no idea who you heard from that it was nonsense, but a large percentage of circuit racers use it and for good reason.

Ok worth while all day long theN and as we have hg seepage going on.

Tbh can't wait to get the other engine built up and sorted etc and replace standard one. Less worries then.

 

[Chip-mk1]

Ok worth while all day long theN and as we have hg seepage going on.

Tbh can't wait to get the other engine built up and sorted etc and replace standard one. Less worries then.

It doesn't stop seepage. It aids heat transfer.

 

[Westytce]

Ok so the update is, no sandwich plate will fit, as they foul on a screw from the oil pump on the block, we tried grinding the sandwich plate down but it wasn't enough and didn't want to have the wall of the seal so thin is doesn't hold the seal in. Bad times! No spacer is available for mocal apparently so the only option is a remote oil filter.

Also would you guys know if the megan turbo contol valve will is worth trying to fit, mine seems to not like holding boost above 1bar, and if you give it death from low revs it says " computer says no"... lip mode please thanks.... Does the Megan control valve have a higher boost limit, I the it would have or am I wrong?


We discovered the turbo oil feed pipe starting to leak slightly also so a braded line needed ASAP as people suggest on here would be needed 2 clamps on it at the moment until can get braded line.

Disks and pads fitted

Will buy some water wetter today

 

[alexr19]

Fair play on getting those results. Shame people have to disagree at times but it would be boring if we all agreed. Keep up the good work. Bet you surprise a few people in this

 

[Dan@SJM]

Ok so the update is, no sandwich plate will fit, as they foul on a screw from the oil pump on the block, we tried grinding the sandwich plate down but it wasn't enough and didn't want to have the wall of the seal so thin is doesn't hold the seal in. Bad times! No spacer is available for mocal apparently so the only option is a remote oil filter.

Also would you guys know if the megan turbo contol valve will is worth trying to fit, mine seems to not like holding boost above 1bar, and if you give it death from low revs it says " computer says no"... lip mode please thanks.... Does the Megan control valve have a higher boost limit, I the it would have or am I wrong?


We discovered the turbo oil feed pipe starting to leak slightly also so a braded line needed ASAP as people suggest on here would be needed 2 clamps on it at the moment until can get braded line.

Disks and pads fitted

Will buy some water wetter today

I don't know what sort of system it runs, but the VAG Me7.5 will knock itself into limp mode if its seeing overboost. The k03 isn't particularly spikey, so you shouldn't be seeing too much of a spike.
It could be down to the boost control table, too much request and it not able to supply it, it'll think there is a leak/problem and kick into limp mode. If its going to limp mode you should have a code there. It could also be the internal torque monitor playing funny buggars, again if it has one. I know my LCR would see engine torque limiter 2 code, after we mapped it originally (350lb-ft) but a quick adjustment and it was fine.

 

[Westytce]

Cheers alex, it's not to everyone's taste that's ok with me, and there is a way of putting across your views with manners, it's work in progress.

I'm not a mechanic so it's good to hear what some people have to say, all is taken on board.

I'd like to advice regards bits and bibs on the car but not sure anyone is really that confident in helping as it's not a common project. but all advice is welcome there are a few people who know there onions and have helped so that's brilliant.

 

[Westytce]

I don't know what sort of system it runs, but the VAG Me7.5 will knock itself into limp mode if its seeing overboost. The k03 isn't particularly spikey, so you shouldn't be seeing too much of a spike.
It could be down to the boost control table, too much request and it not able to supply it, it'll think there is a leak/problem and kick into limp mode. If its going to limp mode you should have a code there. It could also be the internal torque monitor playing funny buggars, again if it has one. I know my LCR would see engine torque limiter 2 code, after we mapped it originally (350lb-ft) but a quick adjustment and it was fine.

Cheers dan, ktec, andy, did say he couldnt find the area on ecu to sort that out in the time he had, he wouldve liked 3 days on it.... Wowzers. We are thinking the Valve could be limited to 1 bar boost as the standard turbo runs 0.5 bar and only 0.7 on over boost. So maybe changing to perhaps a Megan 2ltr tce valve may solve it?

The engine is a Nissan/Renault venture, using nissans engine building technology and renaults turbo charging technology.... Hense why the brake pads are labelled under a Nissan part number :/ the turbo is a mitzi part.... Talk about hybrid mish mash....

 

[Dan@SJM]

It's unlikely to be the valve tbh, assuming that its a 3 port affair? It'll be limited to the turbos actuator pressure. If the actuator is a .8bar setup, it'll see a bit more but only so much until it starts pushing itself open.

 

[Westytce]

The actuator is standard unit from mitzi turbo and used on the k03 turbo, I asked andy when it was being mapped that question could it be due to the actuator, do we need to adjust, he said it isn't the actuator at all. it's all to do with the valve. But couldnt find the area of Damos ecu files to try and resolve.

 

[Dan@SJM]

Basically you can't do anything until the map is adjusted properly. It's seeing too much hoist and knocking limp mode. It won't be the valve as its not being requested for more (that's how I've understood what you've said? Please correct me if I've misunderstood)

 

[Westytce]

I think it's fair to say it needs more fine tune mapping. I'm told the valve talks to ecu regards boost demand and pressure, and if to much is demanded etc and it can't deliver what is being asked in a given time frame, limp mode pops up... It's over my head tbh.... I have to wind in boost smoothly, if I'm at all heavy footed or generous with the pedal below 2k limp mode pops in.

Open for help on this but ultimately I think ktec need to see it again.

 

[Dan@SJM]

The valve is just that, It opens or closes depending on what the ECU tells it to do. If your ecu says It wants 1800mBar, and the Map sensor is seeing 1400mBar, the valve will divert more boost pressure away from the actuator to keep it closed, therefore giving more boost pressure. It can be an issue on a spikey turbo where the valve can't react fast enough to control it. If the ecu hasn't been mapped to request more boost pressure or more duty from the valve, it will see too much boost on the map sensor and hit limp mode.

 

[Westytce]

I understand thanks for the explanation as you can see from my map it isn't the err smoothest,...... So maybe this is the issue

 

[Dan@SJM]

I'd want to do some data logging if I had it in with me IMHO, see what is being asked/delivered/Boost duty cycle etc etc.

Had an LCR in this weekend that had a dodgy N75, but was very intermittent, had to syphon through 2.5hrs of data logging I had going to fins the occasional blip where it'd not react fast enough and sending the turbo pressure through the roof. Was requesting a solid 1800mBar, and only twice did it sky rocket to 2300mBar where it'll go into limp mode.