Mystery fault--electric fault light, ESP, MAP, TPS, and rev limiter.Help me plese!!!

[minisuper666]

Ok, so it all started a couple of weeks ago, some 400 kilometers away from home. I was doing some highway driving when the car started hitting the limiter at 6000 revs. Actually it started as a judder, kinda like a misfire, but not quite, as I tried to overtake another car. I did some tests and sure enough, the car was hitting the limiter at 6000. Then, it started hitting the limiter at 5000 when floored it. I put the car in neutral and revved it, and when the limiter kicked in it lighted the SERV+ ABS + electric fault (the resistor light). No limp mode.


Upon arriving home, I read the fault codes: I had 2 of them, TPS and Intake temp sensor. By this time, It started going into limp mode when I turned it on in the morning, but it would come back to normal when the car reached operating temperature I guess, meaning it would kick out of limp mode. Still, if I floored it and hit the limiter it I would turn the ESP + SERV+ resistor electric MIL.


I cleared the codes, And did the usual throttle body/pedal clean, even opened the throttle body and cleaned the pot inside. I put everything back together, but still no joy.

I drove the car to the dealer in limp mode. When I got there and started the car, there was no limp mode, just the stored faults. I took one of the mechanics for a ride, and while the limiter was still kicking in at 6000-6500 revs, I could not get the ESP light to light up. Or any other light, for the matter (CEL was still on).

We came back to the dealership and the guy hooked up the CLIP to my car. There was a large amount of stored faults, but the only "active"one (shown as a red light in clip) was the TPS fault. Oddly, while skimming through the live data, he also showed me that my MAP sensor had an incorrect initial reading (he said the atnmospheric pressure was off by maybe 25%). He also said that the Throttle body seemed to be working correctly but didnt have a value at WOT. Coolant temp was 95 degrees I think.

Anyway, he cleared the codes, and I went for a ride. Actually I gave the car a good blast for a couple of hours. The limiter would sometimes kick in at 7000+ revs (when the shifter lights up), sometimes it would kick in at 6000, sometimes at 5000. After a couple of hours of this I managed to light up the SERV + ESP again. Took it to the dealer again, the mechanic plugged the CLIP and:

MAP sensor fault, DTC fault. The mechanic also said thet when the MAP lights up the TDC lights up as well (????). This faults only showed up using CLIP, there was no "check engine" light.

Today I swapped the MAP with a meggy one (known to be good), went out for a ride again, hitting the limiter at 4000, 5000, 6000, even in neutral. When the check engine light lit up, I scanned the codes (generic scanner, not clip) and the only fault I was getting was the generic TPS fault. Meggy is running fine with my map sensor.


So basically:

- can a faulty throttle body be causing the limiter to kick in early? Is there a way to check the TB with a multimeter?

- What the F could be causing the rev limiter? I mean Its not steady at 6000 (this would indicate CTS right?), it sometimes comes as low as 4000 revs.


Should I open up the loom and look for damage?
The mechanic did suggest that he could run the cables from the throttle body to the ecu. This seems like something I could do myself lol, so how do I locate the throttle body cables @ the ecu?

Any help much appreciated

 

[minisuper666]

Re: Mystery fault--electric fault light, ESP, MAP, TPS, and rev limiter.Help me ples

so... while you guys in britain were sleeping, I decided to go over the plugs, leads, and coil pack. And (fkc me sideways, 4 times)... one of my HT leads was at fault. No, really. Replaced HT lead. The car revs all the way up to redline and I havent been able to put the car in limp mode again. Tomorrow morning wil be an important test I guess as it's the morning when it goes into limp mode.


Wish me luck!

 

[Jonny1*2]

Glad you sourced it mate

 

[minisuper666]

Re: Mystery fault--electric fault light, ESP, MAP, TPS, and rev limiter.Help me ples

Glad you sourced it mate

not completely , took out the car for a blast down a the highway for some 60 kilometers. The car revs freely all the way to 7000+, the shiftstick lights up, but if I hit the limiter I get the ESP + service light. hmmmmmm. Not really happy about that but I'm getting close to sorting it out complety i guess.

 

[olliewebbuk]

Re: Mystery fault--electric fault light, ESP, MAP, TPS, and rev limiter.Help me ples

Why not replace all the HT leads and see if that sorts it?

 

[minisuper666]

Re: Mystery fault--electric fault light, ESP, MAP, TPS, and rev limiter.Help me ples

Im sourcing a new set as i writr this

 

[minisuper666]

Re: Mystery fault--electric fault light, ESP, MAP, TPS, and rev limiter.Help me ples

200 quid later I have a genuine renault wireset and still no joy. Any ideas?

 

[Jonny1*2]

200 quid later I have a genuine renault wireset and still no joy. Any ideas?

What did you buy sorry?

 

[minisuper666]

Re: Mystery fault--electric fault light, ESP, MAP, TPS, and rev limiter.Help me ples

wireset =HT leads (sorry about the american english lol)

 

[minisuper666]

Re: Mystery fault--electric fault light, ESP, MAP, TPS, and rev limiter.Help me ples

update... I pulled the spark plugs out (I had changed them recently so I didnt think there could be anything wrong with those). Anyway, I had a bit of oil in the first spark plug "tube" (cylinder 1?). Anyway, cleaned that up, checked the plugs for missing parts or whatnot. Anyway, I took the car out for testing. While I still had the annoying "limiter", It didnt turn turn the ESP or SERV light. After a while, the check engine light DID light up. I'm getting P0335 CRANKSHAFT POSITIION SENSOR A CIRCUIT MALFUNCTION.

So, is it safe to say that I need a new TDC sensor + loom?

 

[olliewebbuk]

Re: Mystery fault--electric fault light, ESP, MAP, TPS, and rev limiter.Help me ples

Sounds like TDC sensor. Have you tried cleaning it up first? I've used throttle body cleaning spray before.

 

[minisuper666]

Re: Mystery fault--electric fault light, ESP, MAP, TPS, and rev limiter.Help me ples

cleaned the sensor, plugged everything bakc and the car wouldnt start. I removed the sensor again, bent the connectors to insure proper contact, etc. This time the car started. I went out for a ride and hit the limiter- First at 7000 revs, then 5000, then 4000, 3000, and so on, till the car stalled and I could not make it start. I called the recovery guys and towed my car to the dealer. Let's see how that goes.

 

[minisuper666]

Re: Mystery fault--electric fault light, ESP, MAP, TPS, and rev limiter.Help me ples

2 days at mail dealership, still no answer..

 

[minisuper666]

Re: Mystery fault--electric fault light, ESP, MAP, TPS, and rev limiter.Help me ples

Update-- after a week at the dealers, they came up with:

tdc sensor and loom

Map sensor

Accelerator potentiometer

coolant sensor

It all comes to 500 quid, done at the dealer's.

Does it look right? I mean not pricewise, but how is the abs and serv light related to any of these?

 

[olliewebbuk]

Re: Mystery fault--electric fault light, ESP, MAP, TPS, and rev limiter.Help me ples

Sounds pricey if you were in the UK. But dunno for Mexico.

 

[minisuper666]

Re: Mystery fault--electric fault light, ESP, MAP, TPS, and rev limiter.Help me ples

Its not really the price that bothers me (it does bother me in a way tho, if my car were a jetta or an ibiza i could get the same stuff done at the dealer for 200 quid tops).

Here in mexico somrenaultr prices dont really make sense : TDC sensor + loom fitted is about 50 quid, whereas the coolant sensor fitted is a 175 quid!!!! That little sensor that bolts to the transmission and turnns on the wipers+reverse lightscosts 5 GBP!! yes, five pounds.

Anyway, is the diagnosis right for the fault? dont feel like spending 500 quid only to end back in square 1!

 

[olliewebbuk]

Re: Mystery fault--electric fault light, ESP, MAP, TPS, and rev limiter.Help me ples

Surely if they diagnose it, then it doesn't fix it they are to blame?

 

[minisuper666]

Re: Mystery fault--electric fault light, ESP, MAP, TPS, and rev limiter.Help me ples

yes, indeed. Ill start with the cheapest and work my way up till the fault is gone

 

[MicKPM]

Re: Mystery fault--electric fault light, ESP, MAP, TPS, and rev limiter.Help me ples

Sorry, i've not read all the above... what exactly is the issue as the "Change it and see" approach is not how I prefer roll (nor do advise others to do it). What software/hardware did you use to obtain the error code info?

Mick

 

[minisuper666]

Re: Mystery fault--electric fault light, ESP, MAP, TPS, and rev limiter.Help me ples

Sorry, i've not read all the above... what exactly is the issue as the "Change it and see" approach is not how I prefer roll (nor do advise others to do it). What software/hardware did you use to obtain the error code info?

Mick

Mick, the fault itself is that when I hit 6 thousand revs (sometimes earlier though) the needle starts bouncing as if I were hitting the limiter. When it does this it turns on the ESP + SERV light, which stay ON untill I turn the engine off and on again. There is no limp mode.



The final diagnosis was done at the dealer using CLIP. Previosly I looked at the live data using my laptop (to rule out the cts, reading seemed reasonable). I also looked at the data with a reno tech using the clip, the only "odd" thing he found was that the "initial" map reading was off, and afterwards the car would not get an initial map reading. Thing is, I swapped the MAP sensor with another car before sending it to diagnosis so if the MAP was originally at fault then the "new" MAP would have fixed it (or the old MAP would have caused trouble in the car I swapped with).

And honestly, It seems rather odd for 3 sensors to fail at the same time!

 

[MicKPM]

Re: Mystery fault--electric fault light, ESP, MAP, TPS, and rev limiter.Help me ples

Has anyone checked the wiring out between the MAP and the ECM?

 

[minisuper666]

Re: Mystery fault--electric fault light, ESP, MAP, TPS, and rev limiter.Help me ples

im pretty sure not. i didnt at least. How would I go about this? I have a fluke 87III

 

[MicKPM]

Re: Mystery fault--electric fault light, ESP, MAP, TPS, and rev limiter.Help me ples

You'll need the wiring loom "Pin-out" diagram really but failing that, inspect the loom for obvious signs of damage cuased by trapping and then go point ot point with a continuity or diode test.

Mick

 

[minisuper666]

Re: Mystery fault--electric fault light, ESP, MAP, TPS, and rev limiter.Help me ples

so basically it does sound MAP related? If I unplug the MAP will this get rid of the limiter? (it should be running with a fixed value, no imput from sensor , so if its map or map wiring related it should be gone by unplugging the map?)Im looking for the pin diagram as we speak, but will unplugging the ecu casue a no start sutuation? I mean will my car work after I plug the connector again?

BTW are there any spots known to be bad for the loom, apart from right where it bends into the ecu?

 

[MicKPM]

Re: Mystery fault--electric fault light, ESP, MAP, TPS, and rev limiter.Help me ples

Simply unplugging the MAP Sensor will not allow it to run perfectly no, it will run in a safe-mode via a known set of values. It will then throw up a seperate error stating "MAP Sensor - No signal/Open Circuit".

There is no promise that your current MAP error will vanish as it really does depend what's happened. A short to earth or short ot positive will always remain in memory or as active as the ECM can see a voltage loss or a poor earth via resistance value.

No obvious spots that cuase issues on the F4R loom as they're normally bomb proof. Just check the basics though such as corrosion, damaged pin(s), damage due to trapping wires, continuity, Etc

Mick

 

[minisuper666]

Re: Mystery fault--electric fault light, ESP, MAP, TPS, and rev limiter.Help me ples

thanks a lot nick, Ill get to work and report back

 

[MicKPM]

Re: Mystery fault--electric fault light, ESP, MAP, TPS, and rev limiter.Help me ples

Mick

 

[minisuper666]

Re: Mystery fault--electric fault light, ESP, MAP, TPS, and rev limiter.Help me ples

Ok, so I pickerd up the car from the dealer. I did authorize them to change the TDC + loom (the space felt too tight for me). To my freaking surprise, the car is running as smooth as ever, the "early limiter" is gone.

When I came back home, I opened up the bonnet and an even greater surprise--- the guys at renaut cleaned my engine bay, looks tidy as f'k. Not steam or pressure clean btw lol.

The guys at reno also gave me a list of the things needed to be done: accelerator potentiometer, CTS, and MAP.

From what you've said Nick Im deffo checking the map wiring (accelerator fault would put it in limp mode right?). I'll change the cts for good measure as well. But as it stands right now, the main fault is a combination of MAP + DTC: the dtc sensor appears to have fixed the limiter, and MAP since it came up every single time.

Ill report back with the MAP info, good wiring = TDC fixed the fault, else both things were at fault.

thanks again Mick (thought it was nick earlier didnt I)

 

[minisuper666]

Re: Mystery fault--electric fault light, ESP, MAP, TPS, and rev limiter.Help me ples

final update-- either the TDC or CTS cured the damn thing. I visually inspected the loom , there were no sings of trouble to be found. I didnt unplug the ecu as the problem was gone.

It's been 8 days, Ive been giving the car some serous hell and the issue has not returned.

Thanks a million Mick!

 

[dorian]

Re: Mystery fault--electric fault light, ESP, MAP, TPS, and rev limiter.Help me ples

Hello , was reading the post. Im also from Mexico..... Well for beginers and not talking about the tech's in the U.K (no basis of judgement) but what is a fact is that Renault techs in Mexico are poorly qualified and nor to mention that since the profitability of the dealerships is low because of this reason and ridiculous prices the dealers incur in trying by all means necessary to sell u sh** that u dont need. Well having said this if I may suggest in case (u havent sorted out the problem) I would check the loom going to the throttle valve that as u may notice it runs down to passing by the thermostat housing which through time it will chaf the harness creating high resistance in function of the temp it is subject to.
In terms of DTC's the first step is to attack the DTC in order of apperance due to the fact that off parameters will cause rationality faults in other sensors and or actuators.
After checking this harness I would try checking the pedal potenciometers (both of them) as that if there is an open in one of the tracks it would not let u go all the way to the end of the rpm range. If you have electrical diagnostics skills I suggest u back probe the signal wire going from the throttle valve to the ecm and do a sweep test. Let me know if this works.