NA Tuning

[tom_dot_COM]

Currently i'm working on Suspension / Brake & Chassis Mods for my 172, however once I am finished with these I will start tuning. There is alot of info on forced induction tuning on here and also some on fitting a throttle body setup.
However I want reliability and when driving sensibly a certain amount of economy, so what about an out and out NA rebuild?
Is it possible to build a high reving engine out of the 172 lump?
Do people build the parts for this?
I would run the car with a DECAT throughout the year obviously, however when MOT time came I would need to pass an MOT with the CAT on, I don't know whether this would affect anything?
I'm not bothered about a slightly rough idle as I know this would be one of the concerns.
What kind of power and RPM's would I be looking at for a good build, what would this envolve and what kind of cost??

Sorry if this is all abit vague, but I wouldn't know where to start with NA tuning.
Thanks in advance guys
Tom

 

[edde]

However I want reliability and when driving sensibly a certain amount of economy, so what about an out and out NA rebuild?
Is it possible to build a high reving engine out of the 172 lump?
Do people build the parts for this?
I would run the car with a DECAT throughout the year obviously, however when MOT time came I would need to pass an MOT with the CAT on, I don't know whether this would affect anything?
I'm not bothered about a slightly rough idle as I know this would be one of the concerns.
What kind of power and RPM's would I be looking at for a good build, what would this envolve and what kind of cost??

Firstlyu decide how much your gonna spend and how reliable you want it.

Economy id down to driving and good build/spec.

Its easy enought to build the engine for high RPM jsut the cost the pistosn need changing realy plus roads might as wlel also the connecitng bolts then you have to think balanced crank or go to a full spec drop forged crank for mega money and bearing to suit and when people push that level you need to hink oil cooling etc.

Parts do exists though depend how much you want to spend.

Depending on mapping etc you can pass with a decat personaly I'd just spec a sports cat and forget having to change it ever every year if it does fail or just to be safe plus no need to worry about road side checks.

Idle depends on spec realy and what managment your using a good aftermarket ECU can run very agressive cams etc fine.

 

[ben_p]

charger FTW

 

[tom_dot_COM]

How much for decent forged pistons, connecting rods and bolts? I would be doing the build myself, you reackon I could do all this and get the bottom end balanced for under 2k if I did it myself?
My old pulsar had a fully forged rebuild by dicksons of dunblane for just over 3k, supplied and fitted!

 

[Dash]

Interesting thread. Would be good to know what can be done without bolting silly bits like chargers and turbos on.

 

[TheJesus]

sadly you will probably be paying more on the Clio as the parts are pretty expensive as there's not as many people offering bits like the jap cars. Best bet imo is ITB's, cams, standalone for power, as a rebuild with cams and in high reving spec wont produce as much or as wide a power delivery.
With bodies you'll get similar MPG to what you would on the stock car as well, if not even better.

I'm running the Jenvey setup at the moment on a totally standard engine with cat cams 428's (1.55mm lift @ TDC) and your usual decat, exhaust mods and it runs and idles perfectly fine, you'd never even guess it was cammed. Power wise it's running 203.8bhp @ the wheels and 163.6lbs/ft torque @ the wheels from it's last dyno run, I'd guess it's around 225bhp @ the fly and 180ish lbs, but they made it 240/193... either way it's rapid and makes Subaru, Evo and M3 drivers cry themselves to sleep lol

 

[2 live]

hhhhmmmm.


better mpg than std??


i beg to differ lol.


as above really, depends how much you want to spend. the bottom end could be lightened/balanced, forged pistons, h section rods, arp bolts etc would come to less than £2k easily i would sa y tbh mate, pistons/rods both being around 4-500 a set, some local places will lighten/balance the bottom end fairly cheap....its £60 for a full dynamic balance on a 4 pot engine at minisport for example, just need to supply them with the crank, rods, pistons, flywheel, clutch. as for lightened flywheels etc, better off seeing what weight the tuners take theres down to, and then weighing your own, when i looked into this for the willy, most places would take the flywheel down to 5kg s, mine weighed 5.5kgs with all bolts....and thats standard. lol.

 

[TheJesus]

lol, not really comparable Jon, yours wasn't mapped properly at all and the head got minced as a result! hehe (ditch the Webber ECU!!!)

Mine, Stu's, Philthy's etc all get pretty good mpg, but be warned, if sensors start to fail you'll notice MPG is the first thing to be affected, as my TPS sensor fault lost me OVER 100 miles a tank!!! lol

 

[2 live]

i wasnt comparing mine mate, just going off all the moaning u d o at ho w expensive yours is to run. ok u get maybe better mileage on a good mway run.but the only time u do that is wen its on its way back to gdi pretty much


mine.i knew it would be dear to run, as you say, it wasnt mapped right to start with, + my right foot, fuel bills are gunna soar lol.

 

[kully]

so how bad mpg are we talking then ?????

 

[2 live]

mine was about 10 mpg.on a good run lol

 

[leeroybrown]

What sort of prices are we talking for a tb conversion

What is need parts wise and what is uprated.

Was watching a few vids last night got my really tempted to sell the 182 cup and go for a mark 1 172 now with jenvys lol

 

[2 live]

price is dependant tbh mate. are you willing to do the work yourself?

mine cost me a total of about fuk all. ok i had to supply/fit all the std items, head/cams/inlet etc and swapped for the bodies/big valve head/cams.

i fitted it all myself, which cost me the price of a head gasket set and headbolts., but i wouldnt know where to start with the mapping sid eof it.


kits can be had for about 1500-2k new, lots cheaper 2nd hand, most seem to sell for about the 7-800 mark, the ones iv seen anyway.

and then theres the option of any other work done, headwork, btm end work etc.


i think for a co. to do it, i.e. drive in drive out, would probably be in the region of £3-4 k

 

[TheJesus]

so how bad mpg are we talking then ?????

as above, I get about 220-240 around town which is mainly sat in traffic on the way to work. When I'm off work for whatever reason (working from home, holiday etc) and I'm not just sat in traffic I get around 300 miles give or take.

What sort of prices are we talking for a tb conversion

What is need parts wise and what is uprated.

Was watching a few vids last night got my really tempted to sell the 182 cup and go for a mark 1 172 now with jenvys lol

ITB drive in drive out conversions cost about 4k, you need the bodies, stand alone, injectors, cable throttle kit and ideally matched inlets... as it happens I am selling my Jenvey kit and ported/matched inlets suitable for a 172/182.

It was also probably my car you saw on youtube if it was a silver phase 1 batter an Impreza

 

[leeroybrown]

Ha ha thats the one

My mate used to have a TB vts, was unreal

Saw Yozzasports clio a few times and yours, just makes me one do it more

Its worth it for the noise and look on peoples faces in such high powered cars when your leaving them

 

[stan*]

mine was about 10 mpg.on a good run lol

properly set-up they will return 35mpg on the M.way.

As for building a high revving engine...well geometrically the bottom end isnt the best. The rod:stroke ratio isnt ideal, nor is the bore:stroke ratio. the latter is pretty fixed due to minimal bore wall thickness (if you were wanting to retain 2000cc that is), but the L/S can be altered...its just costly as you need one off pistons and rods. Its something im experimenting with at the moment, and keen to see results from.

 

[2 live]

Ha ha thats the one

My mate used to have a TB vts, was unreal

Saw Yozzasports clio a few times and yours, just makes me one do it more

Its worth it for the noise and look on peoples faces in such high powered cars when your leaving them

my mate had a bodies vts...was poor tbh. put 1/2 second on his 1/4 times, power band was all wrong, used to come on strong with about 500 revs to go til the next gear wud be needed, dropping it right out the power band again.


yes stan.as i said .mine wasnt mapped. but with a heavy right foot, as these things will only encourage.....thats what i was getting. theres no motorway for 15 mile round here mate...and its pretty much all good driving roads to get to it......lol

 

[Diesel_Power]

TB vts? What else was he running because it would be more noise than power. From what ive read, saxos dont respond too well to TBs. Cams and a remap however....

 

[2 live]

^^^ inlets on the wrong side of the block for starters

 

[TheJesus]

TB vts? What else was he running because it would be more noise than power. From what ive read, saxos dont respond too well to TBs. Cams and a remap however....

probably has something to do with the engine being the wrong way round I imagine! lol

**edit** beat me to it Jon!

 

[Andy GDI]

35-38mpg if mapped correctly.

 

[stan*]

yeah you really need to cut into the bulkhead to get some decent length in there.

 

[edde]

Interesting thread. Would be good to know what can be done without bolting silly bits like chargers and turbos on.

Would depends what fuel you use realy as well I'd guess.

 

[tom_dot_COM]

What rough bhp at what rpm would this lot see

Decat exhaust
182 mani
matched inlet & exhaust
a mean set of cams
forged pistons/ rods etc
balanced bottom end
BUT WITHOUT USING THROTTLE BODIES (just one more thing to go wrong on my daily driver.

What would I rev an engine like that to?
I assume torque wouldnt be up much?

 

[edde]

What rough bhp at what rpm would this lot see

Decat exhaust
182 mani
matched inlet & exhaust
a mean set of cams
forged pistons/ rods etc
balanced bottom end
BUT WITHOUT USING THROTTLE BODIES (just one more thing to go wrong on my daily driver.

What would I rev an engine like that to?
I assume torque wouldnt be up much?

Your choice of cams would make a difference .

As for reliability I'd use throttle bodies over the normal electric throttle body for reliability.

220hp or so should be possible but you'd be pushing the bottome end at the end of the day you have to decide how much along the risk vs cost vs hp curves you want to go along.

GDi's demo car is similar type spec to this I think using normal throttle bodies so maybe ask them.

 

[lasbazrre]

What rough bhp at what rpm would this lot see

Decat exhaust
182 mani
matched inlet & exhaust
a mean set of cams
forged pistons/ rods etc
balanced bottom end
BUT WITHOUT USING THROTTLE BODIES (just one more thing to go wrong on my daily driver.

What would I rev an engine like that to?
I assume torque wouldnt be up much?

From what ive read and know , with a remap to tie it all together you will be looking at a good 3k for that little lot! without throttle bodies.

leon

 

[LegoHead]

What rough bhp at what rpm would this lot see

Decat exhaust
182 mani
matched inlet & exhaust
a mean set of cams
forged pistons/ rods etc
balanced bottom end
BUT WITHOUT USING THROTTLE BODIES (just one more thing to go wrong on my daily driver.

What would I rev an engine like that to?
I assume torque wouldnt be up much?

From what ive read and know , with a remap to tie it all together you will be looking at a good 3k for that little lot! without throttle bodies.

leon

I would say at least 4k including fitting.

 

[TheJesus]

What rough bhp at what rpm would this lot see

Decat exhaust
182 mani
matched inlet & exhaust
a mean set of cams
forged pistons/ rods etc
balanced bottom end
BUT WITHOUT USING THROTTLE BODIES (just one more thing to go wrong on my daily driver.

What would I rev an engine like that to?
I assume torque wouldnt be up much?

Your choice of cams would make a difference .

As for reliability I'd use throttle bodies over the normal electric throttle body for reliability.

220hp or so should be possible but you'd be pushing the bottome end at the end of the day you have to decide how much along the risk vs cost vs hp curves you want to go along.

GDi's demo car is similar type spec to this I think using normal throttle bodies so maybe ask them.

GDI demo car is pretty much that spec, it's using the wildest cams you can have without having solid lifters (cat cam 422's) and has full bottom end build, balance and fully flowed/re-worked head on it, but is using the 70mm ETCC enlarged body (63mm standard) and open filter. That's quoted at 237bhp in this months Performance Tuner and it's quicker than my car running ITB's. If Andy's was on ITB's in current trim I'd expect 260+bhp or so.

As for reliability ITB's make the car no less reliable as it's basically a re-worked induction system and if anything more reliable that the standard crap Reno punt onto the car. You can run bodies on a daily motor too, mine's done 40k on a totally standard engine with mild cams (428's) and runs perfectly. Loads of options, personally I'd go ITB's, wild cams, get the pistons machined to clear the valves and get some headwork as it will work out about the same for power and cost but be a better base and sound much nicer.

From what ive read and know , with a remap to tie it all together you will be looking at a good 3k for that little lot! without throttle bodies.

leon

I would say at least 4k including fitting.

... and the rest. Larger single body conversion is £3k(ish), add bottom end, headwork, 422 cams, stand alone (which you have to have on wild cams like these, but iirc comes as part of the 70mm throttle body package), bigger injectors (330cc in mine and Andy's) and you're looking at probably a few thousand £'s more.

 

[ben_p]

are yours Peco 43's?

 

[ben_p]

im tring to find some 550cc injectors, not sure if Peco go that big. i know k-tec do some 480cc ones for there turbo kit, not sure what make they are

http://www.k-tecracing.com/show_product.asp?id=2102

 

[TheJesus]

are yours Peco 43's?

yup, pretty sure they are yeah

im tring to find some 550cc injectors, not sure if Peco go that big. i know k-tec do some 480cc ones for there turbo kit, not sure what make they are

http://www.k-tecracing.com/show_product.asp?id=2102

Can you use the green 550cc ones they use on the Cosworths?

 

[tom_dot_COM]

Probably just worth doing throttle bodies and cams then, a full throttle body setup went for 400 minus management a few months ago, so I reackon I could do the thottle body kit management and cams for under £2k myself *obviously getting the map done professionally* LOW MPG scares me though

 

[ben_p]

not sure they fit in the stock rail

 

[TheJesus]

Probably just worth doing throttle bodies and cams then, a full throttle body setup went for 400 minus management a few months ago, so I reackon I could do the thottle body kit management and cams for under £2k myself *obviously getting the map done professionally* LOW MPG scares me though

what throttle bodies though? you need to be aware of what works and what... well, doesn't really. Webber kits are shite and usually around that price 2nd hand, but I wouldn't touch them as they just dont make the power Jenveys or other decent setups. Cams get 2nd hand if on a budget, you'll also need stand alone management, but I'd make sure you get an 'E' marked ECU. Reason being it's technically illegal otherwise, as they dont have any form of liability insurance and dont conform to safety standards. Only two stand alone management systems offer this that I know of, Motec and Omex. 'E' marking really deserves a thread of it's own as tbh I'd not heard of it until recently when I was notified of someone that had a crash and would have been thoroughly bent over had it not been... lucky escape really.

Also low MPG aint an issue, you'll get over 30mpg combined if you're reasonably sensible and not booting it everywhere, just be prepared for when you do cain it... these things like a drink if you let them

Ben - sure they can be 'made' to fit, or other similar 550cc ones... also woth noting some injectors dont give a true measurement of cc either, like the Celica GT4 WRC are listed as 550cc iirc but are around 380cc or something like that

 

[BenR]

im tring to find some 550cc injectors, not sure if Peco go that big. i know k-tec do some 480cc ones for there turbo kit, not sure what make they are

http://www.k-tecracing.com/show_product.asp?id=2102

Dont worry about injectors, you already have 727cc/min injectors.

 

[timdog]

Cams get 2nd hand if on a budget, you'll also need stand alone management, but I'd make sure you get an 'E' marked ECU. Reason being it's technically illegal otherwise, as they dont have any form of liability insurance and dont conform to safety standards. Only two stand alone management systems offer this that I know of, Motec and Omex. 'E' marking really deserves a thread of it's own as tbh I'd not heard of it until recently when I was notified of someone that had a crash and would have been thoroughly bent over had it not been... lucky escape really.

My god! I am very concerned about this, what is the full title of the law and the bill number? As a solicitor I would be keen to read the full ramifications of this law and the insurance company and case if possible

 

[TheJesus]

Cams get 2nd hand if on a budget, you'll also need stand alone management, but I'd make sure you get an 'E' marked ECU. Reason being it's technically illegal otherwise, as they dont have any form of liability insurance and dont conform to safety standards. Only two stand alone management systems offer this that I know of, Motec and Omex. 'E' marking really deserves a thread of it's own as tbh I'd not heard of it until recently when I was notified of someone that had a crash and would have been thoroughly bent over had it not been... lucky escape really.

My god! I am very concerned about this, what is the full title of the law and the bill number? As a solicitor I would be keen to read the full ramifications of this law and the insurance company and case if possible

Basically an ECU on a car in this country should be marked E11 to show it conforms to safety testing standards. Basically think of it as CE marking that you find in say PC components, toys etc etc, but this applies to motor vehicles. All parts on your car will be E marked to show they have passed safety tests to show they are safe to be supplied to the public.

I'm guessing an example of what could go wrong would be person A crashes their car into person B, the ECU for whatever reason is a non E-marked one and due to person B's injuries police are involved. The car is then inspected and the ECU is shown to be non E-marked, meaning it doesn't conform to the safety standard, so person B is then well within their rights to sue the pants of person A, or whoever fitted it at a guess (I'm now law experts, so dont know who would be liable, guessing whoever fitted it and made it though). The problem associated with a non E-marked ECU may be that the power steering is run from it, which then failed, or some other vital part of the car, eventually causing it to crash... really I'd like to look into it more as it's pretty interesting stuff and like I said, I'd only really heard about this recently.

With Motec and Omex being the only E-marked (aftermarket) ECU's it's kinda nice knowing I dont have this to worry about! I'll speak to Andy and see if he can speak to his dude at Omex for a proper explaination as I've probably not explained it too well, as that's just how I understand it and still would like more information myself.

Here's a brief breakdown on it I found:

http://www.tuv.com/jp/en/_e_mark_and_e_mark_homologation_for_vehicles_vehicle_components_.html
http://www.tuv.com/jp/en/emc_of_vehicle_sub_assemblies_e_mark.html

 

[Andy GDI]

if anyone wants to know more Alan at Omex is responsible for this area. I am sure he would be happy to explain