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Need some help diagnosing intermittent power loss on a Clio 2 ph1 2.0 16v



  Clio 2 ph1 2.0 16v
Hi all! recently bought a clio 2 ph1 2.0 16v with some 120K miles on it. car seemed to be running fine at first but has been a pain in the butt ever since.
I have been reading through the forums quite a bit and I'm not a complete novice when it comes to cars, but I must admit that I could really use some help diagnosing the intermittent power loss I've been experiencing! I'm a bitt at a loss!

What are the symptoms:
car starts every time without trouble.
after a few seconds idle gets a bit rough but if I give it some gas it will idle fine for a couple of minutes on end.
when driving I have plenty of acceleration power pulling through the gears without trouble.
when I drive around in higher gears around 1500 rpms the car seems to stutter ever so slightly
when I floor it the car accelarates fine until it hits a wall somewhere between 3500-4500 rpm. It's like the power is suddenly gone. The car will maintain it's speed but will not accelerate any further. in some cases this even prevents me overtaking other cars as I suddenly loose the power to accelerate.
sometimes after a while the power comes back and the car starts accelerating again, sometimes it doesnt. the rpm's at which the power loss shows up are not solid but generally only at higher rpm's.

What have I checked/found out:

swapped coil with one known to work - no change
ignition leads are fine
plugs are like new but seemed a bit wet when pulled from the engine
hooked up my icarsoft computer:
- coolant temp = steady
- map sensor is within range
- throtlle position ranges between 10.2 - 88.9 and increases fluently
- engine load seems to vary between 0 and 100%
- fuel trim seems a bit strange but I am pretty confident that my computer is displaying the wrong sensor values here.. ltft = 0.0% stft = 99,2% all the time until I release the gas..
disconnecting bot the front and rear lambda sensor does not change these values. neither does it give me a check engine light or anything.
- ignition advance is all over the place but doesn't project strange values when the issue pops up.
took out the injectors, tested and cleaned them. resistance within spec. no problem there
took out and cleaned the tdc sensor which had some oil on it. no difference
took out and cleaned the IAC. no difference
sprayed brake cleaner around the manifold. no vacuum leaks detected
changed fuel filter. no difference


I would like to check for fuel pressure but found that these clio's do not come with a schräder valve so not sure how to hook up my meter. also as the issue mainly comes forward at higher rpm's and under load it would be difficult to simulate in my workshop.
Would the CLIP computer have acces to fuel pressure in the system?

anyway..hopefully someone here recognizes the problem or can point me in the right direction! would hate to have to let this fun little car go again allready!
Cheers!
 
  Clio 1.2 8v
I had this on a few clios, I have and seem the only one after months of looking online to have found the problem.

If you take the rocker cover off there's a plastic plate, plastic welded on within that is the exit for the breather tube (you can't see it when it's on). Bust it off there's a ton of carbon crap underneath and probably milky gunk, most of all the breather tube is only a pin hole size within that 6mm housing. Just clean clean clean,use earbuds and a pin it will take a good hour. After that there are two screw lugs you can use to re attatch the cover just clean the broken weld off and use some silicone on the outside U channel and drill a 4mm hole X2 on the screw holes. It will be obvious when you take it off. After that they always run perfectly.

It sounds wrong but I promise you it's the problem.

Sent from my G8141 using Tapatalk
 
  Clio 1.2 8v
Or remove the breather pipe and poke around inside until you find the tiny hole and clear it, when it runs perfect just do as above as it won't last 5 minutes with the crap inside.

Sent from my G8141 using Tapatalk
 
  Clio 2 ph1 2.0 16v
Thx for the quick reply! I don't mind taking the rocker cover off and having a peak ro see if I can see what you mean exactly. Will order a new gasket tomorrow before I open her up.

Just a bit puzzled as to why a blocked breather hole would cause the car to lose power at high rpms? Is it the breather pipe at the rear left of the engine that connects to this breather hole? (facing towards the rear of the car)
 
  Clio 1.2 8v
Yes, before you remove it, just pull the hose off and poke a screwdriver down there to get the crud out, the as I said use a pin to find the hole should tell you for 5 minutes if it's the issue.

Sent from my G8141 using Tapatalk
 
  Clio 2 ph1 2.0 16v
Excellent! I'll have a go at it tomorrow if possible and see if there's improvement. I'll order the gaskets anyway to have a peek under the cover. It's my daily driver so I can't afford to have it sit still waiting for parts.
 

bloke

ClioSport Club Member
  dan's cast offs.
good luck taking cam cover off and finding the plate!! it's not that.

what's lambda doing on idle? what is map reading? how did you test injectors?
 

DomP182

ClioSport Club Member
  ph1 172, Arctic182
This sounds very much like my symptoms which this weekend I discovered was a poor connection on the precat lambda plug
 
  Clio 2 ph1 2.0 16v
Thanks for your input guys!

I did some extra research on the breather pipe and found out some people actually block it of completely.
Will be cleaning it nonetheless as I figure it's not there for show..

My MAP sensor is showing around 440mbar at idle and decreasing with acceleration as suspected.

Reason I don't have the pre-cat as a main suspect is because the lower loss happens at higher rpms, basically in a WOT situation. In a WOT situation the ECU goes into open loop therefore disregarding the O2 sensor alltogether...
Also when disconnecting the O2 sensor in the shop there is no change in STFT (which is why I suspect my diagnostic device is not showing me the right sensor reading)

I tested my injectors by first listening to them with a stethoscope. They open at regular intervals, not skipping.
Then removed them from the fuel rail and set up a little test rig. I am able to power them while blowing carb cleaner through them. This has shown me they open without hesitation and the spray pattern and volume is identical and what would be expected.

Would I be able to read the O2 sensor mvolts and for example fuel pressure on this 2001 clio using Clip? As my current diagnostic computer does not show them to me..
 

bloke

ClioSport Club Member
  dan's cast offs.
Do not block the breather off!!!!!!! It's the only way the engine breathes.

Ecu doesn't go open loop straight away at wot so still worth checking lambda.
Icarsoft will graph lambda ok, I use one myself for quick reads and graphing.

Nothing will read fuel pressures as there isn't a sensor but it's very rare to ha e a pressure problem.
 
  Clio 2 ph1 2.0 16v
I'm using an Icarsoft i820 but it's not able to show me lambda values. Tried backprobing the ecu connector this afternoon but was not able to get a proper reading (some 40 mvolts) but I would say the test is inconclusive at this point.
The weather is terrible at the moment so have not been able to get underneath the car to get a reading from the connector..

Still hoping someone can confirm whether or not I would be able to read more sensors using Clip. Is it worth the money over the diagnostic computer I have

One of the things I also found odd is that I am able to find the connections for the pre-cat o2 sensor on the ecu in the connector list: O2 sensor earth on pin 80 and O2 sensor signal on 45. (See attached image) but I don't see the connections for the post cat O2 sensor? Maybe someone can shed a light on that?
 

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  Clio 2 ph1 2.0 16v
map reading is a bit high by the way even though it's in spec.

Few options I can think of there since in idle the butterfly valve is pretty much closed :
- MAP sensor is off due to contamination or just wear n tear.
- IAC valve might be a bit sticky and doesn't open enough. Did clean it the other day with carb cleaner and sprayed some non stick lubricant inside of it. Not sure how to test this unit as it's a stepper motor (3 wire I believe)

If however the O2 sensor is faulty and is reporting a "lean condition" the ECU would be injecting more fuel in order to get to a perfect 14.7:1 ratio. In Idle the ECU will then keep on injecting the extra fuel based on the O2 sensor input but will also close up the IAC valve more in order to get rpms down, thus increasing vacuum. Make sense?
 
  PH2 172
the things I also found odd is that I am able to find the connections for the pre-cat o2 sensor on the ecu in the connector list: O2 sensor earth on pin 80 and O2 sensor signal on 45. (See attached image) but I don't see the connections for the post cat O2 sensor? Maybe someone can shed a light on that?

It`s pin 44 on a Ph2,

I don`t know if Ph1 is the same, but 45 is the same pre cat signal.

80 may only be the pre cat earth, and 68 the post cat earth.
 
  Clio 2 ph1 2.0 16v
It`s pin 44 on a Ph2,

I don`t know if Ph1 is the same, but 45 is the same pre cat signal.

80 may only be the pre cat earth, and 68 the post cat earth.

That's pretty odd for them to re-arrange pins between ph1 and ph2 seeing that they're both running on the same siemens sirius 32N ECU with almost identical engines?

This would mean however that if there has been an ECU swap in the past (which there has been due to the all familiair immobilizer trouble) but the person just swapped the ph1 for a ph2 ECU, that the engine would run but would be looking for the O2 sensor input on the wrong pin causing the car to run weird...

A bit far fetched maybe and I have no means of actually reading the ECU to see what software it is running on.. but an interesting theory nonetheless.. maybe I'll try and see if I can "borrow" a ph1 ECU known to be good to eliminate this possibility
 

bloke

ClioSport Club Member
  dan's cast offs.
you need to see what lambda is doing though otherwise it's just guessing. bad lambda can cause few odd issues with them.
 
  Clio 2 ph1 2.0 16v
you need to see what lambda is doing though otherwise it's just guessing. bad lambda can cause few odd issues with them.

Very true indeed!
Was hoping to get a proper reading backprobing the ECU this afternoon but this was inconclusive.
Next step will be to measure the wiring between the ECU and the connector at the O2 sensor end just to confirm I'm measuring at the right pins and to confirm there are no shorts etc.

Then measure again, perhaps while backprobing the connector at the O2 sensor end as it's a bit less tricky than at the ECU itself.. I attached a page from the F4R730 technical notes showing what voltage range I'd be expecting from the O2 sensor just in case it helps somebody else out there
 

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bloke

ClioSport Club Member
  dan's cast offs.
odd you can't see it in live data? does it list it or not even list it?
 

Brigsy

ClioSport Club Member
  Kangoo 172cup
Excellent! I'll have a go at it tomorrow if possible and see if there's improvement. I'll order the gaskets anyway to have a peek under the cover. It's my daily driver so I can't afford to have it sit still waiting for parts.

Dont remove the cam cover it holds the cams in place, your in for a whole world of pain if you start undoing them bolts ?

It soulds like its going lean as feck to me. I would be looking at checking the pump & fpr are working properly. Stick a wideband afr gauge and sniffer clamp in tailpipe to see whats going on
 
  Clio 2 ph1 2.0 16v
No it doesn't show up under live data at all.
I did install the latest updates on my diagnostic device. Mind you, the clio 2 ph1 has a non CAN system so it is a bit more limited than a more modern car.
These are the things I can read:

20190114_214711.jpg

20190114_214735.jpg

20190114_214811.jpg

20190114_214835.jpg


As said before, the short term fuel trim only displays either 99.2 during driving or 0 at idle, so im pretty confident it's looking at the wrong source of information
 
  Clio 2 ph1 2.0 16v
Dont remove the cam cover it holds the cams in place, your in for a whole world of pain if you start undoing them bolts ?

It soulds like its going lean as feck to me. I would be looking at checking the pump & fpr are working properly. Stick a wideband afr gauge and sniffer clamp in tailpipe to see whats going on

Thanks for the heads up!
When I'm done measuring the O2 sensor I'll look into measuring fuel pressure as soon as I get the chance.
As the later phase 1 cars use a return line at the fuel filter I was under the assumption there was no separate fuel pressure regulator in the system?
Havent been able to locate one anyway..
Did change the fuel filter to no avail.

I have no ready acces to a sniffer unfortunately.

One thing that did catch my attention this afternoon now that you mention is that the trip computer estimated I had used around 35 liters of fuel since last fuelup but she only took 27 liters to fill her up completely. As the fuel consumption is calculated by the amount of time the injectors have been open at a "known" flow rate at 3.5 bars of fuel pressure.. could that be an indication that the system might be operating at a lower pressure?
 
  Clio 2 ph1 2.0 16v

This car has double lambda's yes. I have the double cat shown in your link, but I don't recognize the second tube in the picture. From the double cat it's a straight pipe to the silencer at the rear in my case.
Not sure wether this model is called a 172 though as it only sports 169 bhp
 
  Clio 2 ph1 2.0 16v
Just for the record, I really appreciate everybody's feedback!
It's allready given me lots to think about and it's awesome to see the involvement over here.
Thanks!
 

Brigsy

ClioSport Club Member
  Kangoo 172cup
If it has a return pipe on the fuel rail it should have a regulator on the fuel rail, if single pipe its in the tank.
 

Brigsy

ClioSport Club Member
  Kangoo 172cup
It's single line on the fuel rail. So it's part of the fuel pump assembly?

The reg is in tank on single pipe setup, must be a late ph1. Pump prob well past its best at 120k, pull the sender out and check the gauze at the bottom is not blocked up with crap
 

bloke

ClioSport Club Member
  dan's cast offs.
it's not fuel pressure related, wouldn't waste your time even checking it. not sure if i've used my icarsoft on a phase 1 but it should still show lambda.
 
  PH2 172
This car has double lambda's yes. I have the double cat shown in your link, but I don't recognize the second tube in the picture. From the double cat it's a straight pipe to the silencer at the rear in my case.
Not sure wether this model is called a 172 though as it only sports 169 bhp

No 6 has been filtered.

172 ps not bhp.

Have you considered that one of the double cats is on the verge of collapse?

It would be consistent with the thread title.
 
  Clio 2 ph1 2.0 16v
No 6 has been filtered.

172 ps not bhp.

Have you considered that one of the double cats is on the verge of collapse?

It would be consistent with the thread title.
You mean clogged? Or actually pieces of the inside of the cat crumbling and blocking part of the flow?
I can imagine that would create some significant back pressure with the neccesary power loss...

If measuring the O2 sensor and having a peak at the fuelpump/pressure doesn't bring the problem to light I'll pull it from the car and have a look, for now I'll just put it in the back of the list of possibilities ;)
 
  PH2 172
Or actually pieces of the inside of the cat crumbling and blocking part of the flow?
I can imagine that would create some significant back pressure with the neccesary power loss...

/QUOTE]

That sort of thing.

Like crud being picked up from an old school carb float bowl, blocking the main jet, on full throttle & being dropped once the throttle is closed.

Every thing then returns to normal.

18 year old car, nothing lasts for ever, and it`s done well.

Think about a 182 exhaust manifold / decat/ sports cat/ cat back system.

Al the bits & pieces are available to make it work.

Much newer cars are crippled by collapsed cats, more common than you might think.
 
  PH2 172
That's pretty odd for them to re-arrange pins between ph1 and ph2 seeing that they're both running on the same siemens sirius 32N ECU with almost identical engines?

This would mean however that if there has been an ECU swap in the past (which there has been due to the all familiair immobilizer trouble) but the person just swapped the ph1 for a ph2 ECU, that the engine would run but would be looking for the O2 sensor input on the wrong pin causing the car to run weird...

A bit far fetched maybe and I have no means of actually reading the ECU to see what software it is running on.. but an interesting theory nonetheless.. maybe I'll try and see if I can "borrow" a ph1 ECU known to be good to eliminate this possibility

I did find this, and as you say you have the twin cat with 2 lambda`s, there may be some truth in it.

The strange thing is, I can only find the one part number for the twin cat.

Can you confirm you have had the problem of this power loss ever since you bought the car?

Various possibilities spring to mind, has a single lambda cat been replaced with a 2 lambda, or is the cat original, and the ECU been swapped for one suited to single cat system?

The wiring may have been part of the loom to connect 2 lambda`s, in the same way that 2002 PH2`s have the wiring to retro fit cruise control, though it was not even an option.

https://www.cliosport.net/threads/ph1-172-lambda-sensor-quiz.209088/
 
  Clio 2 ph1 2.0 16v
I did find this, and as you say you have the twin cat with 2 lambda`s, there may be some truth in it.

The strange thing is, I can only find the one part number for the twin cat.

Can you confirm you have had the problem of this power loss ever since you bought the car?

Various possibilities spring to mind, has a single lambda cat been replaced with a 2 lambda, or is the cat original, and the ECU been swapped for one suited to single cat system?

The wiring may have been part of the loom to connect 2 lambda`s, in the same way that 2002 PH2`s have the wiring to retro fit cruise control, though it was not even an option.

https://www.cliosport.net/threads/ph1-172-lambda-sensor-quiz.209088/

I can confirm for sure that I have the twin cat with a pre-cat and a post-cat lambda. Both are connected to original plugs coming out of the wiring loom. I can as of yet not tell how they are connected to the ECU.

I did notice however that the straight pipe connecting the double cat to the silencer at the back seems to be made to fit by a previous owner as it's hand welded by what seems to have been the local butcher.

The thing with the ECU is that when I bought it, it later turned out to be running on an ECU from a scrapped clio 1.2. So it wasn't running great to begin with.
As the keys both failed on the immobilizer I had few other options than to switch the ECU for one with virgin software for a 2001 clio 2.0
After a few weeks of driving is when I started to notice some irregularities around the 1500 rpms and intermittent loss of power above 3500-4000 rpms.

I have been wanting to get underneath the car to test the O2 sensor with my dvom but as I'm away for work and the weather has been pretty shite I didn't feel like crawling underneath in a puddle..

over the weekend I'll spend some time in my own workshop, have the car on the lift making it a bit easier to do some testing.
Want to pretty much try and rule out everything else before I start blaming the new ECU. Might still be an underlying issue that has been develloping since it wasnt running great to begin with.

Will keep you updated and I appreciate the feedback!
 

Ant1

ClioSport Club Member
Change the front O2 sensor before the cat, if no change when disconnected that’s a good sign that it’s the problem. Ten minutes to change and Bosch replacements are approx £50 on eBay.
 
  PH2 172
Change the front O2 sensor before the cat, if no change when disconnected that’s a good sign that it’s the problem. Ten minutes to change and Bosch replacements are approx £50 on eBay.

Are the Lambda`s the same as 172/182 Ph2 Bosch 0258006294?
 
  Clio 2 ph1 2.0 16v
Tomorrow I have all day to look at the car and all the items suggested by you guys.

Just wanted to give a small update as the car seems to have added a new chapter to it's engine trouble.
Today on my drive from work I needed to brake quite firmly for a car in front. Slowed down from 30kph to standstill, nothing out of the ordinary. At standstill the engine simply died. I started it up, it ran 3 seconds and died again.
Started it a second time after which it ran, but I had virtually no power for the next 20 seconds or so. After that everything returned to "normal" was able to drive on the freeway without trouble and made it home with only "the usual" trouble.
During the power loss it didn't feel like the engine is misfiring, neither does it shake/vibrate. Felt more like fuel/air starvation. The thing that keeps bothering me is that the computer keeps thinking it is injecting much more fuel than is actually the case.. it's off by quite a bit. (Computer says it has used 35liters but I only need 20L to fill up the tank again..)


Anyway. Tomorrow I have quite some tests planned to try and diagnose the case instead of making educated guesses, and I will try to document my steps for each test in case it might help someone else.

Tests I will try to perform:
- Voltage check on heater wires of the O2 sensor
- Signal voltage check on O2 sensor
- Wire harness check on O2 sensors between sensor and ECU connector
- Temp reading in front and after catalytic converter (to verify it's working or not)
- Whack the cat with a hammer and see if it rattles
- Voltage check at fuel pump
- Voltage drop check at fuel pump
- Fuel pressure test static at pump
- Fuel pressure test static at fuel rail
- Pull fuel pump and check for clogging
- Voltage check and signal check at injector control
- Re-test and clean individual injectors
- Test fuel volume output of all injectors at the same time. (Will try to build a small test rig for this)
- Re-test idle control valve
- Test MAP sensor with vacuum pump
- Test coolant temp sensor
- Test TDC sensor

Needless to say once I find anything out of the ordinary I will investigate further before moving down the list.
Any feedback always welcome!
 
  PH2 172
Tomorrow I have all day to look at the car and all the items suggested by you guys.

Just wanted to give a small update as the car seems to have added a new chapter to it's engine trouble.
Today on my drive from work I needed to brake quite firmly for a car in front. Slowed down from 30kph to standstill, nothing out of the ordinary. At standstill the engine simply died. I started it up, it ran 3 seconds and died again.
Started it a second time after which it ran, but I had virtually no power for the next 20 seconds or so. After that everything returned to "normal" was able to drive on the freeway without trouble and made it home with only "the usual" trouble.
During the power loss it didn't feel like the engine is misfiring, neither does it shake/vibrate. Felt more like fuel/air starvation. The thing that keeps bothering me is that the computer keeps thinking it is injecting much more fuel than is actually the case.. it's off by quite a bit. (Computer says it has used 35liters but I only need 20L to fill up the tank again..)


Anyway. Tomorrow I have quite some tests planned to try and diagnose the case instead of making educated guesses, and I will try to document my steps for each test in case it might help someone else.

Tests I will try to perform:
- Voltage check on heater wires of the O2 sensor
- Signal voltage check on O2 sensor
- Wire harness check on O2 sensors between sensor and ECU connector
- Temp reading in front and after catalytic converter (to verify it's working or not)
- Whack the cat with a hammer and see if it rattles
- Voltage check at fuel pump
- Voltage drop check at fuel pump
- Fuel pressure test static at pump
- Fuel pressure test static at fuel rail
- Pull fuel pump and check for clogging
- Voltage check and signal check at injector control
- Re-test and clean individual injectors
- Test fuel volume output of all injectors at the same time. (Will try to build a small test rig for this)
- Re-test idle control valve
- Test MAP sensor with vacuum pump
- Test coolant temp sensor
- Test TDC sensor

Needless to say once I find anything out of the ordinary I will investigate further before moving down the list.
Any feedback always welcome!


I don`t know the answer to this, but is the fuel tank meant to vent through the fuel cap?

If you are using fuel, air has to get into the tank somewhere to replace it.

Try driving with the fuel cap loose.
 
  Clio 2 ph1 2.0 16v
Ok, so it has been a long and somewhat dissapointing day. I tested my ass off in my freezing workshop but have not found anything significant.

20190119_170305.jpg


Tests I performed today
- Voltage check on heater wires of the O2 sensor: 14.01V
- Signal voltage check on O2 sensor: expected between 0.1 and 1V measured: 0.04V
- Temp reading in front and after catalytic converter after drive:
In front of cat: 164.3C After cat: 193.9C
20190119_105458.jpg

- Whack the cat with a hammer and see if it rattles: it does not, neither does the mufler.
- Voltage check at fuel pump: 13.75V
- Voltage drop at fuel pump: <0.5V
- Fuel pressure test static at pump 5.5 bar. (Only place to measure is after fuel filter, unfortunately bypassing the pressure regulator.) Pressure remained stabile.
- Fuel pressure test static at fuel rail: I have not found a way to measure actual fuel pressure at the rail.
- Pull fuel pump and check for clogging: filter, tank and pump assembly are clean
- Voltage check and signal check at injector control: 12.46V at each injector
- Re-test and clean individual injectors: have not found the time today
- Test fuel volume output of all injectors at the same time. (Will try to build a small test rig for this) have not found the time today
- Re-test idle control valve Unsure how to test.
- Test MAP sensor with vacuum pump: MAP sensor works perfectly compared to second MAP sensor. Did notice vacuum values in air intake are not decreasing a whole lot when accelerating. 400mbar@idle versus 330mbar@ 3729 rpm
20190119_145910.jpg

- Test coolant temp sensor: 600 ohms@ 60C (within spec)
- Test air temperature sensor: 1400ohms @ 50C (within spec)
20190119_152912.jpg

- Test TDC sensor: 243ohms (within spec)
-Test camshaft dephaser solenoid: 9ohms (tiny bit high but might be because of test kead resistance)

Based on the results I found the cat to be working as expected looking at the temp difference. I did disconnect the exhaust in the middle to have a look inside and to see if it made a difference @ idle. It didnt. The double cat looks brand new on the inside..
20190119_125928.jpg


The reading from the lambda seemed to be off while on the car so I pulled it. Came off surprisingly easy once the exhaust was warm.
Tested it in the vice with a blowtorch, results were better but still not what I would expect so I swapped it for a new one for peace of mind.
Having driven the car after replacing the O2 sensor it looks like the 1500rpm stutter is less, but not enough miles on it yet to be sure. The sudden halt in power when going over 3500 rpm is unfortunately still there.

Since the engine has an aftermarket K&N sportsfilter I wanted to confirm once and for all that oxygen starvation is not part of the problem. I did a 3rd gear WOT run on a clean piece of road without the filter and pipe in place. The power loss was still there.

There are still a few things I want to test but am not sure how to yet.
I want to see what my fuel pressure does at the fuel rail, preffereably under load. And I would like to see fuel output from the injectors compared to each other. Will be continued
 


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