Need some help with sport camshafts!

[Gerben Visser]

Hello all,

I am looking for some information about sport cams for my Clio 172 Ph2. I already searched al lot on the forum, but I`m not getting the information which I`m searching for.

The thing is, in 2 or 3 weeks I have to do my cam belt and that’s way a want to drop some sport cams in. I can al do it by myself, my dad is car mechanic. Also we have experience with tuning, but not with Renault.

My car is totally stock and I want to keep my stock ECU (that for sure). I want to port my inlet manifold, which is not something new (I do al lot of 2 stroke porting, so I can grind and have the right tools). Also I want to fix a V6 air box and a better exhaust system (decat). Aiming round about 190-195 bhp if possible. I will keep the airco, not going to remove that.

I informed already and the fact is, Schrick cams are the best. High durations when you look to other brands. But for me to expensive, so no option. What`s left than? Well, I will buy the pipers (regrinds) or used Catcams (used because of the price).

(I know that engine dynamics had the same specs as Schrick, but they are not longer available)

Catcams:

420 is no option because these are almost stock. The 428`s are al little bit to mild I think? Then I have left the 438`s or 421`s. The 421`s are a little bit difficult on the stock ECU, but it is not impossible? There are same people which have good result with the 421`s on stock ECU, but maybe it is better to go for the 438`s? The 438`s have almost the same specs, but a little friendlier for idling and stock ECU? Probably the gains are in the same range as the 421`s?

Pipers:

In my opinion very good durations (more than the Catcams) and it doesn`t matter to me that it are regrinds. Maybe they make a little bit more noise, but also that is not a problem for me. Why not go for the Pipers then? Because I think the lift is far less than the Catcams, maybe it is even less then stock cams? I like the other specs, but the lift scares me I little bit. Who can say something about this issue? The price for Pipers is even cheaper than used Catcams and also I can order them directly at Piper, so I don’t have to look for used ones.

What about idling and city cruising? Some people say the run very well on low rpm, but I also read about bad idling and low speed? Is it the same as with 438`s/421`s? Or are the Catcams much better on low rpm`s?

Conclusion:

Some people with experience maybe? The Pipers I can order straight away, the Catcams I want used and this is a little bit harder. Sometimes there are 421`s in the marketplace, but 438 you don’t see a lot.

Please help me with a little bit information. I searched already al lot on this forum, but can’t find it. Some people only do Catcams, but they don’t have really a reason (because the rest does it)? Some people hate the Pipers, but have no experience with it? Maybe somebody which had them both? Or one off the people which do the remaps can say anything about it (they have a lot of experience).

I`ll hope somebody can help me.

With kind regards,
Gerben Visser

 

[Dan@SJM]

IME, pipers aren't worth the money. No more aggressive than 197 cams.

421's are possible on a stock ecu, just needs a raised idle.

420's waste of time.

428's same as the pipers.

 

[Gerben Visser]

IME, pipers aren't worth the money. No more aggressive than 197 cams.

421's are possible on a stock ecu, just needs a raised idle.

420's waste of time.

428's same as the pipers.

Dan,

First of all, thanks for you reaction! We are on the same level about the 420`s and 428`s (there almost stock and not worth the 600 pounds).

What do you think of the 438`s comparing them with the 421`s? Is this a better option on stock ECU or do you prefer the 421`s?

Do you have some experience with the Pipers? Maybe you mounted them or mapped a car with Pipers? What where the gains which it? Am I able to get 190-195 bhp with the mods out of my first post? How was idling and driving at low rpm?

Thanks!

 

[Dan@SJM]

I mapped a car with pipers in after the original map done on it was shockingly bad.

I mapped a car this week with 438's, and must say they were very nice, took off at 5000rpm, died off a little at 7200 (this'll be due to the adjusted timing to achieve the better idle)

421's do the same but keep pulling until 7500rpm.

Pipers really only felt like a 'good' 172 to me, except it was really Tappy.

Here is what my customer said about his 438's after I mapped it:

Having had 438's fitted by Matt@codered, (thanks again Matt), I made the 180 mile trip to Dan for a remap.
First impression, less lumpy at tickover than standard cams, low revs/part throttle as smooth as standard cams/map (had plenty of experience of this on the 5 1/2 hour return journey). Go past 5k and the difference is very impressive, car pulls much harder up to 7k and sounds great. Overall really happy with the end result,to be honest the car feels "factory". If you need your car mapped it's worth travelling to get the job done correctly. Cheers Dan, ( I'll let you know how I get on at Hethel ).

 

[Gerben Visser]

Dan,

So 421`s en 438`s are in the same range? Only the 421`s give a little bid more on high rpm, but idling is not so nice. 438`s a just under the 421`s, but have good idle?

If you had the choice, you probably go for the 421`s?

Regards,
Gerben

 

[Chip-mk1]

421 and 438 are essentially the same cam just with the timing marks moved to reduce overlap so they idle better.
Set your idle a little higher, or accept it hunting a bit, and run the 421 is my opinion personally.

Who is gojng to map it for you? Would be worth talking to them for their input?

 

[Gerben Visser]

Dear Chip,

I am going to Henk for a remap, but Henk does not like the Catcams in general (he prefers C&B and Schrick, but for me they are to expensive).

I do a lot of racing with 2 stroke bikes and this costs me a lot of money already. That`s why I want to keep the Clio a little bit low budget, I can't afford 2 hobby's. If I make my own exhaust, port the inlet manifold myself and only have to buy cams, remap, airfilter and other small parts, I can do it for less then 800 pounds (which is the same as only new Schricks cams for example).

If somebody has used cams for sale, please let me know.

Regards,
Gerben

 

[clio_dude]

I've run a fair few profiles from different manufacturers, including Cat Cams and Piper.

My Clio was used to test the BP270's, on standard timing it had an almost standard idle, nice wide power band and made 192BHP with 12% trans. losses.

It's worth noting that the Pipers now come with a shim that sits under the hydraulic adjuster, so they are no longer noisey. There is also a BP285 profile that isn't on the website, this has more valve lift and a similar duration to the 421's.

 

[Gerben Visser]

Dear clio dude (don't know you real name),

That sounds good! I found your thread a couple of weeks a go, is it correct that you car did not had a remap with the new cams?

I am also going to inform about the 285 profile, sounds good te me. Is this for the stock engine? Also regrinds or billets?

Regards,
Gerben

 

[clio_dude]

It was running a standard map on the BP270s, I guess Henk at Fastchip would come up with something for you.

 

[wanjo122]

So are 438 the best ones?

 

[Chip-mk1]

So are 438 the best ones?

I find them very underwhelming tbh. 421 work far better (same profile but the exhaust timing is nudged on the 438 to idle better and this also adversely effects performance)

 

[Clioste]

With the 421 you get a jot of juddering don't you on idle sort of thing because I'm currently at 7480rpm when my car dies off

 

[Chip-mk1]

At standard idle speed they sound broken. Raise it a bit and it helps.

 

[Clioste]

Think my idle is 900 I'll check with live data on that I've got a map on it but ain't got a clue which on but I'm gonna stick rs tuner on it

 

[Clioste]

Well I'm thinking of putting ron98 map on the car will that make any better

 

[Dan@SJM]

If you're running 421's you need a custom map not an RSTuner.

 

[Clioste]

I know my car is mapped but not from rs tuner thou.

 

[Chip-mk1]

Any cams that are safe on an rs tuner file aren't worth fitting!
as if they don't make it dangerously lean on an rs tuner at the top end they obviously aren't improving the engines breathing much!

 

[Ph1 Tom]

There is also a BP285 profile that isn't on the website, this has more valve lift and a similar duration to the 421's.

Wish I'd have known this before I got the BP270s.