Nokia - on the brink of self destruction?

[Gouldy]

Nice generalisation.

 

[VeinAST]

8910i and 8800 were gorgeous, 6230 was the model of it's time (£329.99 sim free when it came out in 2004!!).

Slowly though, repackaging stuff was going to get a bit old hat.

Going with Windows was a huge downfall, they've always had a poor OS imo! SPVs sucked balls.

 

[Tom]

Windows Phone 7 is a nice OS.

Its form over function, unusually for a windows product.

 

[Tom]

Nokia are not on the brink of self destruction, although they are adjusting their businesses model within the market.

They are making considerable profit within new and existing revenue streams and are on the cutting edge of mobile technology.

Anyone that says otherwise does not know what they're talking about.

Mobile phone company Nokia has reported a net loss of 929m euros ($1.2bn; £761m) in the first three months of 2012, following a profit warning earlier this month.

So you are telling me Moodys, Standard and Poor and Fitch don't know what they are talking about?

I suspect you may not know what you are talking about.

 

[Dan519]

8910i and 8800 were gorgeous, 6230 was the model of it's time (£329.99 sim free when it came out in 2004!!).

Slowly though, repackaging stuff was going to get a bit old hat.

Going with Windows was a huge downfall, they've always had a poor OS imo! SPVs sucked balls.

Loved my 6230, Loved my 6280. 6300 is the best phone ever made (note, phone NOT smartphone) 6500 was brilliant but probably the last Nokia I will ever buy new

 

[Tom]

6300 is pretty astonishing.

Dad has 5 mint in box ones for keeping him going over the next 25 years. Refuses to have another phone.

 

[Dan519]

LOL I have had my current one for almost 4 years, battery still lasts 3+ days

 

[Revels]

Nokia are not on the brink of self destruction, although they are adjusting their businesses model within the market.

They are making considerable profit within new and existing revenue streams and are on the cutting edge of mobile technology.

Anyone that says otherwise does not know what they're talking about.

You've been banned for trolling and you've just come back. I suggest you take the hint.

 

[Goodj]

Its form over function, unusually for a windows product.

Because Apple is all about pure function, of course.

They certainly don't mak any decisions based purely on how things look, oh no. Not at all.

Now, I'm now saying windows is good, but it's certainly a better OS than Symbian ended up.

Also, I'm not bothered about Android either. Fact is I'll end up getting an iPhone soon just so I can then have tried tham for myself and be able to make sweeping statements with a degree of solidarity

 

[Tom]

No, but i didn't make that comparison. If you want me to I can, but I suspect we may stray from the topic at hand.

And don't quote me out of context, its annoying.

 

[Goodj]

yessir.

Nokia 8110i, my first phone, and on the hunt for another one again. Back then Nokia could do no wrong. But, let's face it, that was 15 years ago.

Last Nokia I had was my E72, a good bit of kit actually, battery lasts forever and it works really well as a PHONE.

Is this the point though, are Nokia still just making phones whislt everyone else is making toys?

 

[Tom]

Yeah you could say that, but the market wants toys.

 

[Goodj]

Because the market is a needy child.

Samsung could probably release a phone with no microphone and it'll still sell like hotcakes.

ditto Blackberry, so long sas they've still got a speaker so wel sik yoof can "blast out" dubstep as they walk down the street, mission accomplished

 

[182Pete]

You've been banned for trolling and you've just come back. I suggest you take the hint.

Eh? Why is this trolling? I'm responding to the subject in the thread?

For your information Nokia are on the cutting edge of mobile technology. They are highly established consultant and hardware supplier for all of the main mobile carriers with their Nokia-Siemens (NSN) partnership.

They are developing the latest 3GPP solutions. Carriers are adopting NSN LTE hardware and new mobile solutions such as Femto Cell Technology, Evolved Packet Core Technology (EPC), Transparent Services, Multiservice Ethernet Backhaul Networks, Microwave Backhaul, Optical and Core IP Transport.

They are also on the cutting edge of 2G switching and are supporting the rollout of the latest HSPA technologies. They are bringing this to market with mobile carriers around the world.

As I'd stated they are changing their business model as they've not kept up in the devices market, but they are gaining substantial business within the core mobile technology space. My guess is that this will likely evolve into the development of new LTE enabled devices that they will leverage through their global partnerships with the Nokia-Siemens brand.

 

[Tom]

NSN isn't the same company you muppet.

Its a joint venture which has nothing to do with the handset division.

You may as well comment on coca cola as its about as relevant.

 

[Truffs]

Eh? Why is this trolling? I'm responding to the subject in the thread?

For your information Nokia are on the cutting edge of mobile technology. They are highly established consultant and hardware supplier for all of the main mobile carriers with their Nokia-Siemens (NSN) partnership.

They are developing the latest 3GPP solutions. Carriers are adopting NSN LTE hardware and new mobile solutions such as Femto Cell Technology, Evolved Packet Core Technology (EPC), Transparent Services, Multiservice Ethernet Backhaul Networks, Microwave Backhaul, Optical and Core IP Transport.

They are also on the cutting edge of 2G switching and are supporting the rollout of the latest HSPA technologies. They are bringing this to market with mobile carriers around the world.

As I'd stated they are changing their business model as they've not kept up in the devices market, but they are gaining substantial business within the core mobile technology space. My guess is that this will likely evolve into the development of new LTE enabled devices that they will leverage through their global partnerships with the Nokia-Siemens brand.

But they are still making a massive loss, massive losses can not be sustained

 

[182Pete]

But they are still making a massive loss, massive losses can not be sustained

I wouldn't diagree with that. They're still worth about 15 billion, mainly for the reasons I'd explained. They are likely to be going through a massive restructure and will probably write off alot of the resources being used for devices (this is where the loses are) and focus on core technology partnerships.

The big renevue streams and strategy for them will be with carriers as they uplift their core networks to support LTE, Femto Cells, PICO Cells and next generation mobile infrastructure.

 

[Tom]

For the last time, nobody is talking about NSN because this thread is not about NSN.

 

[Truffs]

I wouldn't diagree with that. They're still worth about 15 billion, mainly for the reasons I'd explained. They are likely to be going through a massive restructure and will probably write off alot of the resources being used for devices (this is where the loses are) and focus on core technology partnerships.

The big renevue streams and strategy for them will be with carriers as they uplift their core networks to support LTE, Femto Cells, PICO Cells and next generation mobile infrastructure.

Nokia as a whole is simply not worth 15 Billion I think 10-11 Billion Dollars at best, but with quarterly losses of about a billion that makes the company insolvent in just over 2 years, they have to restructure on a major scale or disappear

 

[182Pete]

For the last time, nobody is talking about NSN because this thread is not about NSN.

Eh? The disucssion here is whether Nokia Group are going to self destruct. Nokia-Siemens is a massive Nokia partnership/strategy to generate new revenue streams and ultimately prevent this from happening.

Since you've made this statement can you please elaborate as to why this important part of the topic cannot be included in the thread? Is it because you don't have a contribution to make in this respect and therefore deem it not valid?

C'mon that's not really how the forum should be moderated as this factor is a valid part of the discussion of the "self destruction" of this organisation.

 

[182Pete]

Nokia as a whole is simply not worth 15 Billion I think 10-11 Billion Dollars at best, but with quarterly losses of about a billion that makes the company insolvent in just over 2 years, they have to restructure on a major scale or disappear

Yep I agree and that massive restructure is happening.

 

[Revels]

You act like nobody else is investing in new technologies.

They aren't going to make this money back on phones. It's a downward spiral for them now. Selling a few thousand new handsets isn't going to fix them losing $1Bn in a single quarter.

 

[sneeks]

My stepdad bought a Nokia 710 last weekend sim free from CPW for only £139, excellent little phone and the OS is fast and smooth. Can't complain for the price.

 

[Tom]

Eh? The disucssion here is whether Nokia Group are going to self destruct. Nokia-Siemens is a massive Nokia partnership/strategy to generate new revenue streams and ultimately prevent this from happening.

Since you've made this statement can you please elaborate as to why this important part of the topic cannot be included in the thread? Is it because you don't have a contribution to make in this respect and therefore deem it not valid?

C'mon that's not really how the forum should be moderated as this factor is a valid part of the discussion of the "self destruction" of this organisation.

Ok fine.

NSN Sales are down 7% year on year and 23% quarter on quarter. Yes in the short term they may see some gains from the roll out of EU LTE networks, but its not like they are the only player in the game. ST- Ericsson and Alcatel Lucent (- with the later seeing real profits) are also big players and nobody can sustain losses like they have and be competitive

THEN you add the problems of the other areas of the business.

They are making considerable profit

You said.

Where?

 

[182Pete]

Congratulations! You've done some Googling around and have now figured out exactly who NSN are and that they do form a valid part of this discussion (given that Nokia are a parent company)

The "revenue" that I'm referring is being generated from professional services supplied to operators like MBNL (you may want to Google that acronym as it happens to be quite important in the mobile world). This example is driving some of the biggest infrastructure upgrades ever seen in the UK mobile networks.

You are wrong about competition (did you get that from Wikipedia). The biggest threat to Nokia is not Alcatel Lucent and Ericsson, it's from from Asia! ZTE and Huawei are threating. In case you're not aware of who "everyone" is I mean Nokia, Juniper, Cisco, Tellabs, Alcatel, Ericsson...

The fact remains that Nokia still have massive revenue streams and are losing money because of their legacy business model (recent acquisitions have probably not helped with recent figures). Based on what I know within my profession and the decisions I make I am pretty confident Nokia/NSN will ride this storm and will most likely come out a different beast (if the device strategy fails).

You're statement about upgrades to European LTE networks lacking any long term opportunity made me laugh! LTE by design is a true mobile internet. A complete end to end IP solution. To say that the internet and the core technologies that underpin it are not constantly scaling and requiring upgrades, support and strategy is utter rubbish. Only a person who does not understand this technology would make such a rediculous statement. Core, Backhaul, Subscriber Services, OSS tools, support, development and testing. All of this has to be supplied by the consultant and vendor i.e NSN!

So I will continue to stand by my original statement that Nokia/NSN are not heading for "self destruction".

And what the hell are you smoking fella? These rating agencies you quote who were the architects of the global financial meltdown! Go and ask Moody's if they've ever heard of credit default swaps or Lehman Brothers?


You Muppet.

 

[scott8629]

I am seriously thinking about buying shares in Nokia. 3,15 at the moment.

 

[Tom]

Congratulations! You've done some Googling around and have now figured out exactly who NSN are and that they do form a valid part of this discussion (given that Nokia are a parent company)

The "revenue" that I'm referring is being generated from professional services supplied to operators like MBNL (you may want to Google that acronym as it happens to be quite important in the mobile world). This example is driving some of the biggest infrastructure upgrades ever seen in the UK mobile networks.

You are wrong about competition (did you get that from Wikipedia). The biggest threat to Nokia is not Alcatel Lucent and Ericsson, it's from from Asia! ZTE and Huawei are threating. In case you're not aware of who "everyone" is I mean Nokia, Juniper, Cisco, Tellabs, Alcatel, Ericsson...

The fact remains that Nokia still have massive revenue streams and are losing money because of their legacy business model (recent acquisitions have probably not helped with recent figures). Based on what I know within my profession and the decisions I make I am pretty confident Nokia/NSN will ride this storm and will most likely come out a different beast (if the device strategy fails).

You're statement about upgrades to European LTE networks lacking any long term opportunity made me laugh! LTE by design is a true mobile internet. A complete end to end IP solution. To say that the internet and the core technologies that underpin it are not constantly scaling and requiring upgrades, support and strategy is utter rubbish. Only a person who does not understand this technology would make such a rediculous statement. Core, Backhaul, Subscriber Services, OSS tools, support, development and testing. All of this has to be supplied by the consultant and vendor i.e NSN!

So I will continue to stand by my original statement that Nokia/NSN are not heading for "self destruction".

And what the hell are you smoking fella? These rating agencies you quote who were the architects of the global financial meltdown! Go and ask Moody's if they've ever heard of credit default swaps or Lehman Brothers?


You Muppet.

I've always known who they are.

You are obviously having a tough time accepting the true situation that both Nokia and NSN are in.

Neither are making money and unless NSN is split from its parent I can't see how you expect it to become a major player, when the competition you and I mentioned will just undercut them and price them out of existence.

Only time will tell. But I'm confident I'm right.

 

[182Pete]

I've always known who they are.

You are obviously having a tough time accepting the true situation that both Nokia and NSN are in.

Neither are making money and unless NSN is split from its parent I can't see how you expect it to become a major player, when the competition you and I mentioned will just undercut them and price them out of existence.

Only time will tell. But I'm confident I'm right.

You are obviously having a tough time accepting the facts that I'm presenting to you.

Nokia are not going to self destruct.

Nokia are worth $16 billion and last year NSN were the second largest mobile infrastructure provider in the world. This foot print doesn't just disappear over night. The financial problems are internal to their business structure and their need to align their aquisitions and create a new and more efficient operating model.

For your information I am an independent Mobile Network Architect and have spent 15 years working in the mobile technology industry. I work in one of the worlds most advanced mobile labs and I design proof of concept solutions based on equipment and vendor validation. I test and validate hardware and my team builds end to end solutions using all of the key vendors (ZTE, Huawei, NSN, Ericsson, Juniper, Alcatel Lucent, Cisco, Tellabs).

I base my view on this experience and my connections within the industry.

The statement you make about "pricing out of existence" is a load of rubbish and once again proves your words are the words of someone that does not know what they are talking about. Technology RFP's (you may want to Google that one) are based on technical merit and not just price. Why do you think most data centres are built using mature but expensive Cisco hardware and not cheap alternatives?

NSN are a massive part of the future strategy of many carriers and NSN own the 2G market. Carriers would not be investing in NSN products if they were concerned that Nokia were going to go bankrupt (this is part of the RFP process).

The general view in the industry is that times are not great but they will recover. The problems are not based around a lack of customer revenue, but the need for Nokia to restructure their business model.

Based on my profession and my sources I'm pretty confident you are wrong and I am right.

 

[Goodj]

Problem is, they're phones are utterly waff.

Last one I liked was the E75.

I can't see them ever imploding like everyone's suggesting, but they may well leave some markets altogether if they keep losing share. Nokia in the UK could be about as widespread as, say, Alcatel, but they'll carry on in other markets where the brand is holding up.

If all else fails, just bring back the 3310, 6310i and 8800, they'll sell.

 

[Zorr]

Lumia range is quite nice in my opinion.

 

[Martin_172]

lumias are pretty decent, just need a bit more time to "mature" and get plenty developers onboard for apps etc.

Its a shame Symbian is being killed off, as it may be nothing fancy but the latest versions have been brilliant, stable, app support is good, i usually change every 6 months but had my current N8 for 18 months and got the new 808 pure view on pre order

 

[@Spoonie]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/05/21/lumia-900-hammer-test_n_1533590.html

I wish my HTC was like this...

 

[Tom]

lumias are pretty decent, just need a bit more time to "mature" and get plenty developers onboard for apps etc.

Its a shame Symbian is being killed off, as it may be nothing fancy but the latest versions have been brilliant, stable, app support is good, i usually change every 6 months but had my current N8 for 18 months and got the new 808 pure view on pre order

The current ones (Lumias) wont as they have old chipsets so wont support the next level of apps or OS.

So thats a big f**k up especially if you signed up for more than 12 months.
Symbian is still good in some respects, but nobody is buying those handsets With the exception of a few purists, like yourself.

 

[Silent_Scone]

Heres a fun fact.

Nokia actually used to manufacture toilet paper.

You are obviously having a tough time accepting the facts that I'm presenting to you.

Nokia are not going to self destruct.

Nokia are worth $16 billion and last year NSN were the second largest mobile infrastructure provider in the world. This foot print doesn't just disappear over night. The financial problems are internal to their business structure and their need to align their aquisitions and create a new and more efficient operating model.

For your information I am an independent Mobile Network Architect and have spent 15 years working in the mobile technology industry. I work in one of the worlds most advanced mobile labs and I design proof of concept solutions based on equipment and vendor validation. I test and validate hardware and my team builds end to end solutions using all of the key vendors (ZTE, Huawei, NSN, Ericsson, Juniper, Alcatel Lucent, Cisco, Tellabs).

I base my view on this experience and my connections within the industry.

The statement you make about "pricing out of existence" is a load of rubbish and once again proves your words are the words of someone that does not know what they are talking about. Technology RFP's (you may want to Google that one) are based on technical merit and not just price. Why do you think most data centres are built using mature but expensive Cisco hardware and not cheap alternatives?

NSN are a massive part of the future strategy of many carriers and NSN own the 2G market. Carriers would not be investing in NSN products if they were concerned that Nokia were going to go bankrupt (this is part of the RFP process).

The general view in the industry is that times are not great but they will recover. The problems are not based around a lack of customer revenue, but the need for Nokia to restructure their business model.

Based on my profession and my sources I'm pretty confident you are wrong and I am right.

Where as that is utterly FASCINATING, I have one question that I'm fairly certain every person outside of your profession is asking right now.

How come all the handsets are s**t?

 

[Tom]

And tyres.

If he thinks NSN will save Nokia then thats down to him. It wont.

 

[Keydogg]

From a completely uninformed point of view (and probably worthless to this conversation) I've been quite surprised lately at the amount of people with new Nokias, it's not loads but I've seen a few which is surprising. I used one the other day (no idea what it was) but it was nice and smooth so I was impressed.

EDIT: Think it was a Lumia 800.

 

[182Pete]

And tyres.

If he thinks NSN will save Nokia then thats down to him. It wont.

^ If he thinks Nokia is going to self destruct then that's down to him. It won't.

 

[Munson]

Nokia phones are s**t. As a consumer, that's all I need to know.

 

[182Pete]

From a completely uninformed point of view (and probably worthless to this conversation) I've been quite surprised lately at the amount of people with new Nokias, it's not loads but I've seen a few which is surprising. I used one the other day (no idea what it was) but it was nice and smooth so I was impressed.

EDIT: Think it was a Lumia 800.

There seems to be good feedback from owners of the latest Lumia phones. I think they're quite well priced which could potentially target a good market.

I'm going to borrow one from our device testing lab this weekend and give it a go. I can't see it beating my Galaxy S3 though!

 

[182Pete]

Nokia phones are s**t. As a consumer, that's all I need to know.

^ Troll on!

Haha yeah they are s**t.

Can't believe it's taken you so long to arrive here pal. Where have you been? lol