RS - Feel the Need

[MarkCup]

Along with uncertainty and a mssive PITA there's also a big nod to the CS old-timers in here.



Thanks to @ForceIndia for the inspiration :up:😂

 

[Stay Puft]

The gloves 😢

 

[Mr Burns]

Sorry to hear of your misfortune with the car, but at least they're sorting it. When I had a gearbox issue with my 197 after 2 years and 30k miles Renault couldn't care less.

 

[imprezaworks]

Gutted

 

[c4pob]

Loving the gloves! :up:

 

[Hyperhatch]

Is this a recognised design fault? Do you keep changing the engine every 8000 miles until the warranty runs out or does the warranty reset to the day the new engine went in?

I had this from brand new....

It was my dream car having grown up with a RS turbo, then cosworth etc. A fast ford in metallic blue (I don’t aspire to much!). In 16 months and 12000 miles it broke down 6 times. I don’t own it anymore!!!

 

[BoatNonce]

Sounds proper fucked then I'd imagine it'd be a crate engine, i.e. with turbo etc.

Similar to;
https://performanceparts.ford.com/part/M-6007-23T

 

[Daz.]

3 weeks! 3 weeks to swap it?!

 

[The Chubby Pirate]

The gloves...😂

Glad they’re sorting it! As said i think it’ll be a crate engine with everything attatched!

 

[MarkCup]

Is this a recognised design fault? Do you keep changing the engine every 8000 miles until the warranty runs out or does the warranty reset to the day the new engine went in?

I had this from brand new....

It was my dream car having grown up with a RS turbo, then cosworth etc. A fast ford in metallic blue (I don’t aspire to much!). In 16 months and 12000 miles it broke down 6 times. I don’t own it anymore!!!

I have extended the warranty so I'm good for at least the first 5 years and 100,000 miles. I hope by that time Ford have sorted the problem out!

Sounds proper fucked then 😧 I'd imagine it'd be a crate engine, i.e. with turbo etc.

Similar to;
https://performanceparts.ford.com/part/M-6007-23T

That's what I'm mostly hearing although others have said just a block/head, or the full engine but without all of the ancillaries.

3 weeks! 3 weeks to swap it?!

Nope. Two weeks to deliver it to the dealer and then one week for them to fit it and get it back to me.

 

[davo172]

If it was mine it would be down the road as soon as it was fixed ! Can see this having a bit of an effect on resale values when it more common knowledge .

 

[Sam]

Are you happy with a new engine ?

Im thinking if it was my JCW, i'd be pissed off having a new engine when the car is so new.

Also, the clocks not reading what the true mileage of the engine is would probably annoy me.

 

[MarkCup]

If it was mine it would be down the road as soon as it was fixed ! Can see this having a bit of an effect on resale values when it more common knowledge .

Are you happy with a new engine ?

Im thinking if it was my JCW, i'd be pissed off having a new engine when the car is so new.

Also, the clocks not reading what the true mileage of the engine is would probably annoy me.

I have no problem with any of this at all. I'm delighted by it if I'm honest...where I was looking like I'd have another 65k miles before needing to retire it from daily duties...I now have another 75k miles.

In effect I have the same car that I bought six months ago but, after 8,500 miles, it will have zero wear on the engine, the clutch, or the turbo.

Also I'm starting to think that having evidence of having this done is only going to help retention of value in the long run. Yes Ford are working on a potential recall/inspection/fix for all, but that'll be ad hoc, and with the intention of avoiding full engine replacements by replacing components necessary to prevent any leaks.

The thing is that even a slight leak coolant can cause bore damage, and if your car doesn't go through regular full heat cycles it may only leak randomly and infrequently...and with Ford applying a sticking plaster instead of a whole new engine some of that damage will remain.

 

[car.crash]

I wouldn’t have thought they’d swap out the clutch and turbo.
But corrrect me if I’m wrong.
When I had a engine changed at a dealers they swapped the main engine and bolted all my sensors and any other parts onto it.

That was a crate motor from Vauxhall’s.

 

[BuCkLeY...]

engine wise depends what ford have in stock otherwise they might take off track with all bits on. Otherwise bolt stuff on.

when i replaced a new mondeo 2.0 lump which blew up they sent a full engine etc with turbo but 1.0 engines gotta swop everything

 

[Matt W]

Are you going to have to go through the running in process again?

 

[Clio_fool]

Shame it's failed but good that Ford are sorting it ASAP.
If I was looking at a used RS in 2 or 3 years time I'd be happier to buy one that had evidence of a new engine fitted than not in an early car. It's a shame that they have this problem, but plenty of new cars do suffer from issues so it's not like Ford are alone here.

 

[leeds_182]

At least they’re sorting it. I can’t believe that something like this wouldn’t show up during testing.

Subs.

 

[Mr Plums]

Shame mate, but atleast you are having the engine etc replaced, then hopefully you dont have anymore similar problems, for a top end hot hatch, an RS at that, you would have thought they would have seen this during testing as above.

Im glad its getting sorted, and i loved the closing scene with the gloves hahaha:up:

 

[Ex-User (19928)]

All you people thinking it'll affect resale or that you'd be annoyed getting a new engine are mental.

Mark you've got a decent attitude about the situation, shame you'll have to do running in again.. although I'd suggest you don't treat it any differently since it's not like it helped this time!

 

[davo172]

I wouldn’t have thought they’d swap out the clutch and turbo.
But corrrect me if I’m wrong.
When I had a engine changed at a dealers they swapped the main engine and bolted all my sensors and any other parts onto it.

That was a crate motor from Vauxhall’s.

This is 100% what will happen they will change minimum parts reqd

 

[Donny_Dog]

It just need a head gasket replacement?!

 

[MarkCup]

I wouldn’t have thought they’d swap out the clutch and turbo.
But corrrect me if I’m wrong.
When I had a engine changed at a dealers they swapped the main engine and bolted all my sensors and any other parts onto it.

That was a crate motor from Vauxhall’s.

This is what I thought but many many people have told me/said that it will include both the turbo and the clutch.

Are you going to have to go through the running in process again?

I am indeed. Not the 3x 10hr days I spent back in in May though. No need, I've bonded with this car already, I'm going to enjoy taking my time this time around.

This is 100% what will happen they will change minimum parts reqd

We will see!

It just need a head gasket replacement?!

What about the bore/ring wear from multiple starts with coolant washed cylinder walls?

 

[Chapppers11]

Sorry to hear this Mark. At least it's a fairly reasonable timeframe.

Mine is on the lowest mark of coolant currently so I've booked it in for a check.. They can't fit me in until the 11th Dec though!

 

[Mr Plums]

I still wonder how vauxhall got away without recalling the corsa vxr in for the piston 4 issue.

 

[Gally]

Nice to see it getting sorted. Is the fix simply the gasket Mark?

Wouldn't bother me personally to buy one. I always remember reading about the rigirous testing this one was put through, some were 5,000 miles deep and this never showed up. Guess you can do all the testing you want but in the real world, cold starts, driving etc no one knows.

 

[Ian_182]

Unlucky @MarkCup but like you say you'll have brand new everything to get on with.
I'd be interested to know the cost if there's an invoice you can get hold of for the engine because back in the day I used to know a mechanic who used to buy "crate" engines from ford and I always remember a new RS Turbo engine used to cost £680 from Germany back in the 1990's.
I hope it all goes smoothly.

 

[Advikaz]

So what’s the crack here then, I’ve heard of loads of these having engine problems?

 

[BoatNonce]

Unlucky @MarkCup but like you say you'll have brand new everything to get on with.
I'd be interested to know the cost if there's an invoice you can get hold of for the engine because back in the day I used to know a mechanic who used to buy "crate" engines from ford and I always remember a new RS Turbo engine used to cost £680 from Germany back in the 1990's.
I hope it all goes smoothly.

I know you can get a brand new ST170 crate engine for £1.5k and comes everything but ECU and gearbox (but has clutch).

So what’s the crack here then, I’ve heard of loads of these having engine problems?

Ford picked the wrong company to borrow their engines from.

 

[Mr R.]

Why has the gasket failed and have Ford's changed the gasket design?

Or is it something more? I did see on YT an engine that had one of the head stud fixings crack at the rear of the block through a bad block casting.

Is it this that's the problem mate?

 

[MarkCup]

Sorry to hear this Mark. At least it's a fairly reasonable timeframe.

Mine is on the lowest mark of coolant currently so I've booked it in for a check.. They can't fit me in until the 11th Dec though!

Keep a close eye on it and listen closely at every start! If it stutters like mine did it's firmly on its way.

Unlucky @MarkCup but like you say you'll have brand new everything to get on with.
I'd be interested to know the cost if there's an invoice you can get hold of for the engine because back in the day I used to know a mechanic who used to buy "crate" engines from ford and I always remember a new RS Turbo engine used to cost £680 from Germany back in the 1990's.
I hope it all goes smoothly.

The basic engine assembly part no. 1916186 costs £4.5k but labour and all the other odds and sods increase the total final bill to a shade under £5,750.

Nice to see it getting sorted. Is the fix simply the gasket Mark?

Wouldn't bother me personally to buy one. I always remember reading about the rigirous testing this one was put through, some were 5,000 miles deep and this never showed up. Guess you can do all the testing you want but in the real world, cold starts, driving etc no one knows.

So what’s the crack here then, I’ve heard of loads of these having engine problems?

Why has the gasket failed and have Ford's changed the gasket design?

Or is it something more? I did see on YT an engine that had one of the head stud fixings crack at the rear of the block through a bad block casting.

Is it this that's the problem mate?

The gasket and coolant leak into the cylinders are the result of the problem but I believe the flaw itself isn't the gasket or open deck block (which doesn't help the gasket due to the lateral movement under load you get in the cylinder walls).

I think it's a little more fundamental than that. Yes Ford are now on the 5th part number for the headgasket which shows they've been trying to fix something but if the gasket is at fault, why does that fault not show under load?

I ran my car at SRR twice recently, the first time my coolant level was spot on, the second it was really low...so the problem was clearly happening at the time of the second run...but if I ignore the slight differences at absolute peak on the graphs, both sets of curves trace the exact same paths (and are clearly comparable with a FPM375 car as well). One could be a 'tracing' of the other.

Wouldn't a gasket failure and coolant leak show itself on the RR? Surely it would? If so that means the gasket isn't failing when the cars being driven...but it is when the car's sat idle...and cooling down.

The main changes from the 2.3 fitted to the EcoBoost Mustang were the turbo and head as far as I'm aware. The material that makes the head casting and piston liners is changed.

The Ford Oasis report I have from an RSOC member who had his replaced states "...cylinder block out of tolerance. Distorted at cylinder head joint 21...".

So my theory is the engine itself is flawed, fundamentally. For whatever reason, as the vehicle cools down (most likely parts cooling at different rates?), it distorts and allows that seepage of coolant into the cylinders.

This is why it showed no problem on the RR, when all is up to temperature everything is tickety-boo and seals nicely. As it cools though it bends itself out of shape.

This would explain why there's so many out there that haven't failed yet. I myself do 13 miles each way to work and I can say that for the first 9 of them the engine is nowhere near its normal peak operating temperature. How many Focus RSs are there out there that never do a journey that long? Judging by all the low milers quite a lot!

So there's a mass of cars out there that never go through enough full heat cycles for the fault to show itself...but given enough of those heat cycles, I'm beginning to think they'd ALL fail.

The word currently is that all July 2017 engine builds onwards have been fixed...yet even with all the global community interest, not one person has been able to identify exactly what's changed.

My main concern is that it's not yet been fixed. This problem was apparent long before my car was built...I genuinely thought "Nah, not me!". Maybe they thought the gasket redesigns had fixed it? I won't be surprised if I'm going through the same probloem in another six month's time! I'm going to be pressing very hard for assurance that I won't be...we'll see if I get anywhere.

 

[Ian_182]

At least your getting it done now.
Just think of some ford nut who puts 2k a year on his beloved car only to find out in year 5 he has a 6k bill coming his way out of warranty.

 

[imprezaworks]

Glad I didn’t buy one now.

Yeah I wish, well not in their current state lol.

Hope it gets sorted ASAP.

 

[Danith]

Keep a close eye on it and listen closely at every start! If it stutters like mine did it's firmly on its way.



The basic engine assembly part no. 1916186 costs £4.5k but labour and all the other odds and sods increase the total final bill to a shade under £5,750.







The gasket and coolant leak into the cylinders are the result of the problem but I believe the flaw itself isn't the gasket or open deck block (which doesn't help the gasket due to the lateral movement under load you get in the cylinder walls).

I think it's a little more fundamental than that. Yes Ford are now on the 5th part number for the headgasket which shows they've been trying to fix something but if the gasket is at fault, why does that fault not show under load?

I ran my car at SRR twice recently, the first time my coolant level was spot on, the second it was really low...so the problem was clearly happening at the time of the second run...but if I ignore the slight differences at absolute peak on the graphs, both sets of curves trace the exact same paths (and are clearly comparable with a FPM375 car as well). One could be a 'tracing' of the other.

Wouldn't a gasket failure and coolant leak show itself on the RR? Surely it would? If so that means the gasket isn't failing when the cars being driven...but it is when the car's sat idle...and cooling down.

The main changes from the 2.3 fitted to the EcoBoost Mustang were the turbo and head as far as I'm aware. The material that makes the head casting and piston liners is changed.

The Ford Oasis report I have from an RSOC member who had his replaced states "...cylinder block out of tolerance. Distorted at cylinder head joint 21...".

So my theory is the engine itself is flawed, fundamentally. For whatever reason, as the vehicle cools down (most likely parts cooling at different rates?), it distorts and allows that seepage of coolant into the cylinders.

This is why it showed no problem on the RR, when all is up to temperature everything is tickety-boo and seals nicely. As it cools though it bends itself out of shape.

This would explain why there's so many out there that haven't failed yet. I myself do 13 miles each way to work and I can say that for the first 9 of them the engine is nowhere near its normal peak operating temperature. How many Focus RSs are there out there that never do a journey that long? Judging by all the low milers quite a lot!

So there's a mass of cars out there that never go through enough full heat cycles for the fault to show itself...but given enough of those heat cycles, I'm beginning to think they'd ALL fail.

The word currently is that all July 2017 engine builds onwards have been fixed...yet even with all the global community interest, not one person has been able to identify exactly what's changed.

My main concern is that it's not yet been fixed. This problem was apparent long before my car was built...I genuinely thought "Nah, not me!". Maybe they thought the gasket redesigns had fixed it? I won't be surprised if I'm going through the same probloem in another six month's time! I'm going to be pressing very hard for assurance that I won't be...we'll see if I get anywhere.

Top write up - very interesting

 

[Ex-User (19928)]

At least your getting it done now.
Just think of some ford nut who puts 2k a year on his beloved car only to find out in year 5 he has a 6k bill coming his way out of warranty.

In all fairness, OEMs are normally pretty good with major failures that are caused by design faults. Wouldn't make the process any more fun though!

 

[Ex-User (19928)]

I won't be surprised if I'm going through the same probloem in another six month's time! I'm going to be pressing very hard for assurance that I won't be...we'll see if I get anywhere.

Try not to worry about hypothetical scenarios like that! Also if they put in writing that you won't have the same issue, what will that change if it did happen again?

Chances are it'll be fine. Your analysis sounds decent but Ford (internally at least) will have someone that really knows what's gone wrong and they won't be taking chances on a fix.

That said, you could always sell up and get a used GTR

 

[Dr HMS Derv Destroyer]

Seeing this popping up frequent lately. We have a ford repair center not far from our garage. It's not just The 2.3 suffering either. I've had a 1.0 ECoboost apart, and a 1.6 ( although this one was over revved )

It's like rovers K series all over again....

 

[leeds_182]

Nice to see it getting sorted. Is the fix simply the gasket Mark?

Wouldn't bother me personally to buy one. I always remember reading about the rigirous testing this one was put through, some were 5,000 miles deep and this never showed up. Guess you can do all the testing you want but in the real world, cold starts, driving etc no one knows.

In this day and age to not detect an issue like this is pretty poor though. It’s good they’re sorting it but it’s a joke it’s happening in the first place.

 

[Steven103]

Ford dealers will know there's a leak and where it's come from, Ford UK won't know why but will be lobbying Germany like mad, Ford Powertrain will be delving through test archives and Ford's Quality/Supplier Assistance team will be turning over every stone from the consistency of a third-world tin mine to whether the bloke assembling the head bothers to wear the "correct" type of glove or follows whatever procedure is given to him.

Could relatively easily be something missed in testing. How do you squeeze 10 years and 100k mileage into a 2 year development period? Generally you run it as close to non stop as possible. That said climatic chambers and in-market testing in very cold places do exist but the sample size is relatively small. Could just as easily be stacks of evidence saying the design is OK and it's just a manufacturing process or individual batch that's subject to more variation than was expected/acceptable.

Also unless it massively inconveniences the customer/dealer they'll replace whatever is cheapest overall including labour and what has the least engineering/commercial risk. If you fit a new sealed engine problem solved and the money is eventually recovered from the engine supplier who warranties the assembly, if you start taking it apart and replacing odd bits then Ford vs the Dealership have a big argument as to who pays when it throws a rod two years later.

P.s. gloves were great.

 

[Stefan.]

Game changer..