Super charger or Turbo

[172@18]

was thinking of putting a turbo in my 172 till ppl menchionted super -c..

was is the best soultion 2 go 4 gmc said they should be able 2 do 1--this is what they said...................................

Hi. a s/charger can be fitted to any car, we do not have a specific kit, or have any plans to make one,
if you can make the mtg. brackets to fit one then we can supply all major components to make it work,
approx. cost, for parts i would guess at £3000 inc intercooler.
without interfering with engine internals, i would guess that 50% bhp /torque increase is very attainable, for more forged pistons and lowering of compression would be required, then 100% increase should be attainable.
john gmc


so what do u think the best thing to do is ??

 

[Glennclio16v]

Out of curiosity can you still have the wonderful sound of a dump valve or wastegate actuator with a supercharger!?!

This would be a major consideration for me!

 

[Steveold]

You can have a dump valve but it sounds different, its more of a longer sound than a turbo as a turbo spins down fast but a supercharger spins with the engine....

 

[telford_mike]

The Saxo guys are good at this stuff - I think HardcoreSax has one? Saw it at York Dragway - very effective and a nice tidy install. Very difficult in a 172 though owing to lack of room in the engine bay.

 

[HardcoreSax]

To be honest having look in the engine bay of a 172 it would be a very tight squeeze, even in the bay of the MK2 VTR you need a new manifold, new radiator, and the back of the headlight has to be cut away to fit it...

Youd also probabally have to loose the air con...

Thats not to say it couldnt be done, and believe me itd be well worth it.

As far as the dump valve goes you dont need one on an S/C and fitting one would most likely loose you power.

 

[Tom]

of course it would!! the pressure would be lost through the valve

 

[BRUN]

doesnt someone already have a S/C fitted to a 172 on this forum ?

im sure there is, so its definitely possible

 

[Simon]

DEJAN has got one fitted from a Merc. CLK/SLK !

 

[HardcoreSax]

How the hell did he fit an Eaton supercharger into a 172.

Ok the eaton M45 from the C/SLK is fairly small for a roots type s/c but it makes the rotrex look tiny!

He must have it strapped to the top of the engine sticking out of the bonnet like some sort of Mad Max american muscle car

 

[172@18]

What bhp and torqe level would i be looking at if i got this done??

 

[HardcoreSax]

Probabaly a lot more power than the engine could handle...

Youd need to lower the compression ratio to around 9:1 for a start so youd need low compression forged pistons, maybe a new crank and con rods depending on what percentage increase in power they can handle.

Then theres the clutch, engine mounts, possibly the gearbox and driveshafts.

Plus it might be wise to go for somne bigger brakes, Id go for the biggest disc you can fit under your wheels, maybe with a set of 4-pot calipers as well.

Id have thought youd could get around 300bhp+ fairly easily with an S/C and intercooler,

 

[TB1]

Hmmmm......

Hardcore has pointed out some good points but you will be looking at more than whats stated above.

New ecu will be needed (a good one not some rubbish thing)

Gearbox and driveshafts a definate as the standard will suffer badly with the power.

Brakes are a must (4 pots a definate)

Traction control/differential to keep the power on the road and you out of the hedges

Uprated engine internals, pistons, injectors etc.

Clutch and flywheel a definate.

Engine mounts, strut braces etc to keep the car from twisting if you put too much power through it.

uprated suspension.

A car loving bank manager, this is because by the time you have finished coughing up all of the above you could have actually purchased a better quicker and more reliable car in the first place.

For what you will end up with from what you started with you probably wished that you had spent the money on a different car, the fact being is that high power though a fwd car isnt the best way to go (very costly and wont be nice to drive as a standard clio 172) but it will be fast for 1/4 mile sprints but thats all, the rest is going to be like chucking money down the drain......



Tony

 

[technicalman]

Put what ever you like on your motor, Type approval and single vehicle appraisal laws change next April, so you will have to produce 500 identical examples to meet Homologation rules and thus reach a type approval, or you wont be allowed to drive it on the road, how ridiculous is that?

They have implemeted this already in Germany (euro prats) and alot of Germans are well pissed that thier mad modded motors arent allowed on the road, even covers things like exhausts, they have to meet EEC drive by noise emissions which is why all new ferraris sound sh*te!

 

[Tom]

blimey havent seen you for a while

 

[technicalman]

Work, been Korea, Japan, Switzerland. Its only been 2 weeks and ive missed it all!

 

[telford_mike]

Will that apply to new cars (i.e. registered after 1.4.2003) or our current cars too??

 

[technicalman]

Dont know what they will do here, all cars built since jan 1990 come under homologation rule, you have to build at least 500 to get a certificate of safety conformity. If you had a kit or a one off you could get a Single vehicle appraisal and that was ok, but this is being scrapped, kit cars will be ok as the manufacturer will have to inspect these before they can be put on the road.

But what has happened in Germany is that when you take your car for its annual inspection, if you have modded it in anyway and things like exhausts dont display CE logo on them with an approval number, it fails, and your registration is withdrawn. Engine mods and wheel sizes also affect emissions, and these are stated on the type approval certificate (these are the info cards stuck on the cars at the dealers) so if your motor is outside these, you fail. So, basically it wont pass an MOT if it wasnt sold like that, but i do not know how it will be applied here next April.

I presume this is why Renault and now Ford or offering tuning kit through main agents in the way of Renault Sport and Ford RS/SVE goodies, so that you can still be individual but meet all the legislation. BM and Merc have done it for years with Alpina, Hartge, AMG, Brabus which are all now officially available.

 

[Tom]

Quote: Originally posted by technicalman on 21 November 2002


Put what ever you like on your motor, Type approval and single , even covers things like exhausts, they have to meet EEC drive by noise emissions which is why all new ferraris sound sh*te!





Do they?

they use a flap system in the exhaust over ????rpm to allow full flow - and get round euro noise regs

 

[technicalman]

Apart from anal retentive politicians stiffling boyish fun, would love to see anyones 172/willy/valver that has been turboed or supercharged, seen a sax that had one and it used to melt cylinder heads.......

 

[technicalman]

Then again, renault are supposed to be campaigning the new megane in the WRC soon, a turboed 350hp jobby, and this will also have to be homologated before it can compete, and the engines will have to be in regular production, so this could be the best way to get turbo power without all the hassle.

 

[Nick Read]

Good points TB1, yeah youve got to build the lump strong, but then again its not always about buying a car thats quick out of the showroom, although for many people thats the only way they know. I might be a fool to have spent the amount of money I have on my Clio to make it fast but when my fwd Clio can keep pace with a 4wd Scooby RB5, then its much more of an achievement, to my mind anyway. Whats the challenge in caning everyone in an Evo 6? Theres no point IMHO.

Like I say, its horses for courses; you will always get genuine enthusiasts who will spend way over the odds on their motor to make it fast. I could have bought a couple of early WRXs by now with the amount my Clio stands me in for. Bloody Renaults.

 

[technicalman]

Agree with TB1 and Nick, if your an entusiast then nothing is ever too much. Problem now is joe average wants some go in his motor, so these engines are pretty much at their max and modding them with blowers means doing allsorts of other stuff like pistons, injectors, lightened flywheels etc. and that kind of specialist engineering costs mega bucks but when you see all those shiny braided hoses and alloy headers everyone will always look on in respect and awe of your project.

Nick, did you do your own work or did you get a specialist involved?

 

[172@18]

i think my best bet is to put my money 2 wards a v6 am doing a 5 month trip for my dads work good money so going to save till christmas and go and see about the v6 ! ! CANT WAIT

 

[HardcoreSax]

I think if your reasons are right you can tune any car...

I could have quite easily bought an old Scooby with the money Ive spent on my car...

I wanted something that would surprise people, and it does. Its the looks on peoples faces when you either go shooting past them or they simply cant pull away from you.

when I go to a day at the drag strip or a show I get no end of poeple asking me what ive had done, and what problems I had, and I enjoy telling them.

Second I love cars and everything automotive, hence the reason I come on a Clio forum when ive got a Saxo. I cant get enough of cars and i could quite happily talk about them all day. I wanted a car I could play with, ok the S/C has made things a bit more complicated, but if I need to work on the car I dont feel threatened by it apart from the ECU is all pretty straight forward. Spares are dirt cheap and easy to get hold of and I get a great sense of satisfaction if theres been a problem Ive managed to solve myself.

Half the fun of owning a S/C Saxo is the fact thats its different its something that bit special, ok it has its problems from time to time, but its all part of the experience.

I dread the day when I own a standard car that is exactly the same as any other, and the only time I open the bonnet is to top the water up, no matter how fast it is.

I thank you.

 

[Ben H]

Here here!



BTW: is your Saxo white? Was it at Donny in April? If so, I was parked behind you - black 16v. Supercharger sounded FANTASTIC!

 

[TB1]

Hardcore,

yup i see what your getting at but the good sign of a modified motor is that it can be run day to day without problems occuring.

Now if your car is having problems that a normal saxo wouldnt have, then you have either pushed the modifications too far or you havnt done enough on the standard car to match whats been done in association with the power its now pushing out.

The problems that can be encountered when modifying a small car like yours are things like bad traction (torque steer and the likes), twisted chassis due to the ammout of torque put though it.

You can only do so much with front wheel drive cars, these cars are not made to take serious ammounts of power, and you probably know as well as i do that having achieved what your at now you too know that its time to move on to something that can achieve in standard form much more than your saxo is actually capable of (ie you need either a rear or 4 wheel drive car).

Good on you for getting where you are though, i just wouldnt want to drive your car in the wet



Tony

 

[HardcoreSax]

LOL... yeah it can be a little hairy in the wet, but in the dry its nowhere near as bad as you would expect, power delivery is very smooth and controlled. Its very easy to steer the car with the throttle, especially as it doesnt take much to provoke understeer. Once Ive got an LSD it should be even better. I accept itll never have the cornering ability of a 4wd, but that doesnt mean it wont be a very capable little car.

I only ever aimed to get around 200bhp, if GMCs demo car with 220bhp managed to run a 12.8s 1/4 mile then 215bhp is easily enough for me.

Im not bothered about taking it any further really. I just want to get rid of some of the extra weight and sort the suspension to give true go kart style handling, well in an fwd kind of way, but you know what I mean.

As far as reliability goes I havent had any power related problems, alternator was playing up, may have been due to heat from S/C but it doubt it because it only really gets warm, signal conditioner got fried when bodyshop jump started my car and obviously didnt earth it properly, only major problem Ive had was one of the bearings going in the S/C unit which is currently being sorted under warranty.

Your right though if I need quench my thirst for power its going to be either 4wd or rwd...

mmm... mid engined supercharged 3.0 V6 Rwd Saxo... all i need is a porshe gear box and some welding gear...! LOL if only it was that easy!

Ben H> My VTR is black... the white one at Donny was Matt Dales 255bhp VTS