Supercharger Fitting Guides

[RSi Dave]

Dont suppose anyone has any decent guides that they have for fitting superchargers?

Ive been looking about on Google and only found this one

http://autospeed.drive.com.au/cms/A_2511/article.html

from autospeed but you have to pay for it, i would do but my credit card is at its limit at the moment so cant buy it. Does anyone have this document to download or any other documents about fitting chargers?

Thanks

 

[cliokid1.4]

probably not what your lookin for but was on ebay and saw an electronic supercharger that kicks the same way a full throttle NOS kit does, havnt heard of anyone running them in the uk tho?

 

[theduck]

cliokid i dont know of a single electronic supercharger that actaully works, let alone anything for sale on ebay.

No offence meant to you, but those things really dont work...

 

[RSi Dave]

lol @ the ebay jobbie.

For that money i can buy a Proper supercharger and no doubt get a belt aswell

 

[cliokid1.4]

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/electric-supercharger-vauxhall-vectra-corsa-tigra_W0QQitemZ8070644714QQcategoryZ36680QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

thats the one i saw, but i think your rite mate i hav never seen one working or heard what there like

 

[theduck]

one of the nicer looking ones on the market, but £300 is extortionate. if it was £100 might be worth it just for the dumpvalve sound, lol

 

[Gray]

I think you should go Mad Max stylee, a BIG FAT Charger sticking out of your bonnet.... at the push of a button and the charger is activated! :evil: Zoooooooooooooooooooom!!!

 

[RSi Dave]

lol, and my engine would die trying to spin the fucker.

Ill stick to my m45 i think

 

[cK]

The dump valve won't make a noise.

 

[stan*]

best off just doing it from scratch mate. a guide (if you find one for your particular car) is going to be just one persons interpretation of how it should be done...and likely it wont be the best!

 

[RSi Dave]

true, but id like to know just how certain things should go before doing anything like this myself.

 

[stan*]

depends on the type of charger really as to how it should be mounted/driven. wot do u have in mind?

 

[RSi Dave]

Mini Cooper S Eaton M45 Supercharger

Mounted at the front of the bay

I would need to remove the PAS, lower the altenator down to make room but there is enough space.

My issue come from how the belt is to be run from the Crank upwards, also got an issue of mounting an intercooler/oilcooler and running an air feed to it and then to the TB.

Technically it cant be that hard, but im guessing it will be

 

[stan*]

witht hat type of blower your best bet for the charge-cooling is to integrate a cooling matrices into the inlet manifold. easier said then done...would be costly. unless u adapt a jag V8 item for e.g. as for the drive, cant u integrate the blower pulley into the aux drive belt, rather than hving a seperat bely/pulley?

 

[RSi Dave]

integrating the aux belt and the pulley was the plan.

Will have to look into the cooling a bit more, there was talks of using a Vovlo 440 1.7 Turbo Intercooler (as its the same engine as mine) However i dont know much about these.

 

[theduck]

volvo intercooler could be a plan...

 

[davep24]

Search the internet for how the mx5 is supercharged. These take forced induction really well and there are lots of guides out there.

I think getting the mechanical bits to work is the easy part. The hard part is getting the electronics that piggy back on the ECU to work well. Its not just a case of throwing more air at the inlet manifold as your injectors wont be able to keep up. So its either fit larger injectors, a new MAP sensor and remap the ecu (hard) or fit a fifth injector in the inlet manifold a get it working off the piggy backed ecu (easier)

You also have to consider a knock sensor, as your ecu will only be able to r****d the ignition so far

With regard to cooling the air, have you though about a charge cooler instead of an intercooler as these are a lot small and the water tank can be fitted away from the engine. Otherwise, try and fit a larger radiator and mount an intercooler in front of it.

How much boost are you planning on running?? you should get approx 135 to 140 bhp with 4psi and it may be possible to get that without charge cooling. Any more than 4 and you would most likely need it. 8 psi should give you approx 165 - 170 bhp

 

[wrx-172]

Would really need to run something like an omex system

 

[Matt16v]

I doubt that a) any one makes a direct fit supercharger for a Clio, b) the standard fueling system wouldn't have a hope in hells chance of dealing with positive boost pressure, c) finding space to one would be an issue.

PS those lecky S/C's actually caused a power loss when tested on an MR2. 40k rpms is nothing and afaik they're plastic fans. You only need to see how a turbo or s/c compressor is constructed to appreciate why there isnt a "cheap" option.

 

[stan*]

The OE managment can be made to deal with above atmospheric pressure, but i would ditch it for an aftermarket kit personally.

 

[BenR]

If your running a roots/screw type, adiabatic efficiency isnt bad so you can get away without an intercooler.

Dump the stock inlet manifold, mount the charger behind the engine on a fabbed up inlet/plenham/charger flange mount, leaving the front aux setup stock, just add a longer belt.

Run something like a VEMS, dead cheap, great, easy to map, built in wideband........900bhp vehicles already running on it so no problems and can run off all stock sensors.

Run water injection if you want...deal with higher boost levels......but i wouldnt push too far on stock internals primarily because abnormal combustion will melt/hole a cast piston before a forged.

 

[RSi Dave]

The initial plan is to use as much as the Standard parts as possible, i know this might not be the best but this way i can get something running. ill be running the standard cooperS charger with the standard pully attached.

Space wise there is plenty of room at the front of the bay if the PAS is removed as the altenator can be dropped down to make room.

Cooling ive been looking at space and i reckon i could fit a front mounted intercooler at the bottom infront of the Standard Radiator, not looked into other cooling methods!

The problem persists of management and fuel injection, i reckon a stand alone management would be needed and bigger injectors however im unsure on what would be needed on this.

Piping is another worry as something would need to be fabricated from the outlet on the charger to then run to the cooler, however im unsure on costs for this and where to ask.

Similar issue with the Inlet aswell

Working out costs without Management, injectors etc.. im looking at roughly £400 ish

 

[BenR]

Personally, for an easy base setup i would run no intercooler, mount the charger straight onto the manifold. At a later date, water injection might solve any problems.

Make sure you get the compressor speed vs engine speed correct.

You might need to extend the nose to get good charger placement.

If you need a good speed density based management system pm me, a friend builds his own ecu's with quite frankly fantastic performance for the money.

Injectors, you can nick off anything.

 

[RSi Dave]

How would you run the belt from the inlet tho?

And also being that the exhaust manifold is directly underneath the inlet manifold surely hot air will cause problems?

What injectors would you recommend?

 

[BenR]

ah crap, thought you were doing a 16V! lol

In which case you have tons of room for a charge cooler.

injectors......anything that flows enough and fits your fuel rail, impedance will depend what management you decide to run.

 

[RSi Dave]

lol, the things you where saying makes more sense now! If it was a valver then yeah inlet would go but im doing an RSi

 

[Batman]

and mad max supercharger is fake well kinda in the film it shows him being able to turn it on and off and everyone knows a supercharger runs off the crank so its on all the time jesus

 

[BenR]

unless you have a clutch and a bypass valve.

 

[BUTRE]

You really should study ford's first. Anything from NA to turbo as already ended up to bigger turbo, supercharged, turbo + supercharged thousands of times!!! Don't know why Renault tuners are so far away from Ford tuning since the principals are the same!

M45 eaton from the mini is ok for 1.6 to 2.0 engines when it comes to cfm. Now, you need to know how many PSI of boost you can run with stock internals... keeping the std CR I'll tell you no more than 5PSI or melt down.

Other thing that everyone forgets (until a rod opens an hole on the block) is the con rods bolts. Go ARP! Std ones are always too weak to coupe with the increased torque. ARP makes them for F7 engines so maybee they will be ok for the RSi. Check it out.

If your std ecu is a siemens similar to the F7, then its possible to use the R21 2lts turbo ecu, MAP sensor, injectors, etc You should have your car live mapped by a good mapper/tuner because there are NO chips off the shelf for you.

Try the local renault tuners for live maping. If your std ecu is capable of being maped on the MAP table, VE, etc etc then you'll might only need MAP sensor that can read boost pressure.

For injectors:
What are your std ones? How much do they flow? This questions must be answered first. If they don't flow enough, knowing what injectors impedance your ecu drives you can go for other cars injectors. For example:
Std FRST weber "blue" injectors: 16ohm, flow 197cc @ 3BAR and can flow for 180bhp on the FRST.
Std punto GT/M3 Bosch "beige - 701" injectors: 16ohm, flow 240cc @ 3BAR and can flow for 240bhp on the FRST.
Std escort cossie weber "blue" injectors: 4.8ohm, dont know how much they flow but can get the YB engine up to 280bhp.

There are too many injectors going around cheap cheap cheap for that to be a problem! I have 2 sets of std FRST injectors laying around for safety LOL

Other things like clutch, engine mounts, etc can be in trouble when dealing with the extra torque, but that is also something easy to fix.

Read this project from a fiesta RS1800 being supercharged:
http://www.fiestaturbo.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=120396

 

[BUTRE]

That ebay fan they call "supercharger" is crap and money in the bin. They say it does 40k rpm... a turbo spins around 100k rpm to make stock boost on a stock engine!

Oh, I'm guessing that your engine is ok. Going first for a cylinder pressure test wouldn't hurt.

 

[stan*]

ARP bolts arent really going to be of any real benefit. increased torque comes from increased cylinder pressure. the increased compressive stress on the piston, and therefore rods, is not transmitted through the cap bolts. increased engine speed however is a different story, where as the piston travel towards tdc when the exhst valve is open, there is a massive tensile stress on the rod, but more importantly on the bolts....therefore higher tensile bolts are needed, as are rods with a greater tensile strength (by material/process/design).

Also, Cr is very much dependent on cam, ignition/fuelling stratergies, chamber design, and mainly charge temp control. "boost" is nothing more than restriction of flow. you can have an engine running at say 6psi manifold pressure which has higher CYLINDER pressure than one at say 12psi. totally dependent on head/valve/cam design.

 

[BenR]

bingo bango..........stan the man.

You'll only need ARP bolts with higher RPM or if they are a weak point as std.

 

[BUTRE]

When it comes to NA you dont have the amount of torque rushing/bursting on the crank like on turbo engines.

Ok this is a supercharger which is alot smother on the torque delivery but even then... ARP bolts are really cheap and you better play on the safe side JUST because you dont know how weak are the std bolts!

Can anyone say how much can the std con rod bolts handle? I would go ARP for safety.

It's more comon to see a rod throught the block cause of the bolt not up to the job then a bent "banana" rod.

An example: std zetec con rod bolts will fail first before the std con rod bends.

 

[Fred@BTM]

my mate is insatlling a cooper S charger onto a 2.0 pinto (in an orange ford crapi) he's just fabed up an adapter for the charger to get rid of that strange shape, i can have a word and see if he'll make you one too?

 

[BenR]

yes, but the point were making is that the rod bolts are not stressed by compressive forces, i.e the power stroke.

The highest loading on rod bolts is on the exhuast stroke just before TDC, and this force will be the same even if a stock engine is running 25psi.

 

[stan*]

When it comes to NA you dont have the amount of torque rushing/bursting on the crank like on turbo engines.

Ok this is a supercharger which is alot smother on the torque delivery but even then... ARP bolts are really cheap and you better play on the safe side JUST because you dont know how weak are the std bolts!

Can anyone say how much can the std con rod bolts handle? I would go ARP for safety.

It's more comon to see a rod throught the block cause of the bolt not up to the job then a bent "banana" rod.

An example: std zetec con rod bolts will fail first before the std con rod bends.

i would say the reason if/why the conrod would would crack the block i.e. fail at the cap, is more likely that the increased cylinder pressure/compressive force is forcing oil out of the bearing shell=over-heating and failure that way.

even then it would take a far bit of pressure for the oil to evacuate the bearing surface.....maybe the piston failed first.
most of the time its a case of "the chicken and the egg".

as has been said, there will be no increse in stress on the bolts if the max engine speed satys the same.

 

[BUTRE]

Actually I'm talking about real life and not what happens in theory.
First, who knows what is the first thing to fail? Saying that the engine is properly maped what is the first mechanical part to fail?

I'm just saying that every NA engine I've seen going turbo/supercharged fails first on the con rod bolts. You can take zetec, pinto, duratec, etc Don't know about Renault.

ARP are cheap for preventing the worst.

Stan, you're saying that if you only rev to a know rpm (say 6000rpm) the con rod bolts are ok regardless the induction?! I can tell you that I see that this is not true mate.

 

[BenR]

real life or theory, it doesnt matter.

I have never seen an engine failure through the rod bolt breaking exclusively. This has already been explained, even if you double the compressive forces through forced induction, the highest loading on the rod bolt itself will stay the same, so long as the same peak rpm between stock engine and a boosted stock engine remains the same.

When a boosted stock engine fails, and assuming that combustion events are normal and there are no excessive pressure spikes, then its normally the piston pin bosses or the rod itself which fails.

 

[Fred@BTM]

rod bolt sheared on yoz mate

 

[BenR]

As per renaultsport, stock piston/rod assembly WILL fail with sustained use above 6800rpm.

So its an unrelated subject to what we're discussing, apart from what we were saying about rpm related forces on the rod bolt.

I cant remember exactly what happened on that engine, but wasnt it the piston pin boss that failed first?