Suspension overhauled and STILL have knocking :(

[jinjur]

Righto, apologies for my consistent spate of threads of late but I really am trying to understand what is going on in the suspension of my car while fixing it myself.

So, as the steering was sloppy, wandering and hard to get tracked/keep tracked, I spent a few quid and a bit of time at the front end

• I replaced the front pass lower ball joint and tre (both Lemforder) as both were badly gone (lateral and up/down play by hand)
• I also replaced both front shocks as well (Stock Reno) as the rubber top mounts and bearings (KYB kits).
• The rear shocks are 1/2 year old KYB Gas-A-Just items and both are fine.
• Top engine mount replaced about 6 months ago (GSF kangoo diesel mount)
• Top gearbox mount replaced about a year ago (GSF part)
• Bottom gearbox mount still original
• Powerflex dog bone mount done about a year ago

Doing all of the above, appears to have removed that 'orrible noise when driving over cobbled roads and has definitely tightened the front up a lot. Granted, I haven't tracked it yet as i want to make sure i am done up front first.

However, I noticed this morning when taking up drive (first gear + that "old clutch" juddery bit) that I can feel a knocking coming through the bulkhead.

I would say it feels like its passenger side but that's probably an incorrect assumption is my foot would be pressing down on the bulkhead there using the clutch, if you know what i mean.

I am going to have a good eyeball tonight for anything making or nearly making contact that could rattle when the engine is taking up load, especially round the rack etc but just wanted some more opinions?

Things that haven't been touched:

• wishbone bushes (Obviously look worn but prying them with a bar caused no excess movement of note and certainly no contact)
• inner track rods (When doing the shocks I gave these serious abuse but couldn't note any play at all)
• driver side joints (I inspected these when doing the shocks and both were very stiff/fresh)
• steering rack bushes (Apart from these being a prick to do, when inspected they look fine. I cant see taking up drive causing these to knock, maybe I am wrong?)
• ARB bushes (Again, they look cracked but going at them with a pry bar caused no scary sights or noises)

Would appreciate your thoughts and advice gang before I take a few litres of unleaded to this

Cheers
A

 

[MG cup]

Manifold touching subframe or body. Check all engine mounts, exhaust mounts and reset engine position if required. Purely because you have had things replaced in the last year doesn't mean they were fitted right so don't overlook them while checking things.

 

[jinjur]

I hear you bud, thanks for that.

Yeah, I do all the work myself so I always try to double/triple check as i go, but parts still fail. the joints that were replaced were done so originally with the other side and still failed.

This feels more like a resonant frequency vibration rather than direct engine contact if you know what i mean.

However, I will be checking this.

When you say "engine position", I actually used the engines natural lying position after a quick shake for the top mount.

Would you be of the opinion to pull the engine forward a bit before tightening?

A

 

[MG cup]

When you say joints what do you mean? There are lots of suspension joints.

Remove battery, slacken2 bolts and 1 nut on g/box mount, slacken lower gearbox mount, slacken upper engine mount nut, slacken dog bone mount, give it all a little shake and let it settle, make sure the manifolds not near the subframe and adjust if needed, take into account that when using forward gears the engine will twist with the sump moving forward and the rocker cover wanting to go back. Make as much space for the manifold and tighten everything up again.

Anything coming in contact with the exhaust will give a resonance, I.e heat shields, gear linkage, axle, subframe, bulkhead.

 

[jinjur]

By joints, I mean ball joints mate......all 4 were replaced when i got the car with generic mo-factor ones.

So one side basically completely failed, passenger side. probably gets a bit more abuse with potholes and crap at the side of the road.

Interesting take on the engine positioning. never occurred to me to take it that far but I will indeed do that.

Regards
Andy

 

[Tigger]

Andy, we should meet up and sort these wagons out!

 

[jinjur]

Tell me about it Tig

Right, so last night a reset the engine position, was actually quite surprised how much it moved to find its natural sit when everything was loosened. Definite down side to changing each mount one by one.

Also, I loosened the bottom cover of the engine as I recently removed the padding/insulation/crap catcher that was full of oil, water and general muck. it was rotten and half hanging off anyways but it looked like when the engine moved, it might have been making contact. So all clear there.

I thought all was well this morning until i put the engine under load a bit early, like say 3rd gear at 10 mph and the noise came back when the engine grumbled a bit. Bowlacks!

Definitely feels bulkhead, low down area.....

Double checked every other thing I replaced, focusing on the ball joints. All look/feel fine.

Manifold/exhaust is not touching anything.

Could inner track rods, ARB bushes or steering bushes be doing that especially when I cannot find play in them manually?

J

 

[MG cup]

It's a metalic noise right?? IMO its definitely your manifold /exhaust touching something from your description, nothing else comes close to bulkhead or Floor to give this noise. You do realise the engine moves under load and may appear to clear everything sat on your drive, move off and it all shifts. IMO you have either not set the engine quite right, worn engine mounts, heat shields touching something.

I think you need to spend more time on it if that's the first time you have removed the drip tray but you seemingly checked everything?!?!?:S

 

[r&skxa]

Could give the exhaust a kick from the underneath and see if its hitting the bottom of the bulkhead. Aftermarket exhaust? Exhaust hangers shot?

 

[jinjur]

It's a metalic noise right?? IMO its definitely your manifold /exhaust touching something from your description, nothing else comes close to bulkhead or Floor to give this noise. You do realise the engine moves under load and may appear to clear everything sat on your drive, move off and it all shifts. IMO you have either not set the engine quite right, worn engine mounts, heat shields touching something.

I think you need to spend more time on it if that's the first time you have removed the drip tray but you seemingly checked everything?!?!?:S

No bud, its not a metallic noise. Its a knocking and it literally sounds like someone is tapping the suspension or bulkhead with a bit of wood. i.e. not sharp metal on metal.

Most certainly not the first time this car has been apart, drip tray has been on and off a lot. I do know what I am doing despite how it sounds......seems like you think I don't tbh :S

The gist is I am not well these days and overhauling the front suspension was huge effort for me. This is gutting to someone who has rebuilt engines and gearboxes in the past I was just hoping for pointers or someone who had suffered the same gotcha after replacing everything of note up front.

Come one mate, of course I realize the engine moves.........every mount has been replaced, even with a powerflex dogbone bush.

And that dog bone bush was to CURE the manifold contact noise which was a whole different noise altogether. This is a slow vibration noise....not when the engine is under massive load. Literally, when just starting off and the engine vibrates at say 1000 rpm, this causes judder or when I labour the engine to forcefully induce the noise.



A

 

[jinjur]

Could give the exhaust a kick from the underneath and see if its hitting the bottom of the bulkhead. Aftermarket exhaust? Exhaust hangers shot?

hey bud, deffo not. That's one thing I was able to check and there is mile of clearance. All new reno rubbers on the exhaust as well.

A

 

[MG cup]

Fair enough, by the way you had said that was the first time you had taken the drip tray off in recent times.

You say its a slow vibration and a dull knocking? I know its hard to describe sometimes but what of the two is it?

Well if its not the exhaust hitting the frame etc, is it a drivetrain problem? You say its when setting off under light load, is it clutch judder, can it be felt through clutch pedal? Is your g/box side crank seal gone?

 

[jinjur]

Fair enough, by the way you had said that was the first time you had taken the drip tray off in recent times.

You say its a slow vibration and a dull knocking? I know its hard to describe sometimes but what of the two is it?

Well if its not the exhaust hitting the frame etc, is it a drivetrain problem? You say its when setting off under light load, is it clutch judder, can it be felt through clutch pedal? Is your g/box side crank seal gone?

Only take the tray off for servicing mate.......the recent flooding of the roads over winter look like they took their toll on the padding so I removed it from the tray.

Vibration and knocking mate, car vibrates at low rpm due to a worn clutch, just judder and this causes the knock which goes once the vibrating stops. Its really hard to describe this. Sorry.

I can feel it through the steering, through the bulkhead. its very similar to the noise of broken ball joints driving over cobbles but more muted and obviously, it doesn't happen when i do exactly that.

Don't think its drive train (s**t, don't scare me!) as its only when the engine vibrates. Gave the car a good roasting there at lunch and it is very much only at low rpm when the engine judders

its sounds bushy/jointy/something contacty......but deary me, I have replaced the likely candidates.....i am going to end up just replacing everything to find it.

p.s. didnt mean to seem narky, appreciate the input bud

A

 

[MG cup]

I'm at a loss really without having seen the car tbh mate. If your shure suspension is a1 and no exhaust contact I can't think of anything that would cause a knocking/vibrating at low speeds/revs other than contaminated clutch causing judder.

 

[richwilkins50]

What about the universal joint on the steering column? That gives the feeling of worn ball joints. Just an idea. I need to replace mine.

I have a funny thudding noise coming from the drivers front, which is completely unrelated to the u/j, but I have replaced every suspension component with genuine stuff and its still there, so I share your pain with these problems lol.

 

[Dave H]

With the engine off, hand brake off, and out of gear lift the bonnet and push down hard and fast close the the front suspension turrets. Is there any knocking noise coming from the struts?

 

[Tigger]

Andy you're not having much luck with this noise
I've got a faint "clicking/scraping" between 1.5-2k revs whatever the hell that is :S

Hope you get sorted out soon!

 

[jinjur]

With the engine off, hand brake off, and out of gear lift the bonnet and push down hard and fast close the the front suspension turrets. Is there any knocking noise coming from the struts?

No mate, just the hiss of new shocks.

No knocks or thuds

J

 

[jinjur]

What about the universal joint on the steering column? That gives the feeling of worn ball joints. Just an idea. I need to replace mine.

I have a funny thudding noise coming from the drivers front, which is completely unrelated to the u/j, but I have replaced every suspension component with genuine stuff and its still there, so I share your pain with these problems lol.

Possible candidate.

Is this a common thing to go?

J

 

[sinnie92]

Does it do it with clutch engaged low revs under load, e.g accelerate from around1000rpm in 3rd? Is there a rough noise when you turn off that doesn't happen if you turn off with clutch depressed? Possible clutch vibration damper or thrust bearing failure?

 

[jinjur]

Does it do it with clutch engaged low revs under load, e.g accelerate from around1000rpm in 3rd? Is there a rough noise when you turn off that doesn't happen if you turn off with clutch depressed? Possible clutch vibration damper or thrust bearing failure?

No, no noises with the drive train at all.

It sounds exactly like a bottom ball joint on its way out. but I have checked them twice now and they are fine.

Fk this

 

[Tigger]

Silly question here but does it make the noise stationary or only on the road?

 

[jinjur]

not silly at all bud, great question....

no, it only makes it when driving

i cannot recreate it by doing ANYTHING with the steering, only wgen the engine runs slow/laboured enough under load, does it shake the engine/steering/trans enough to make the noise

a

 

[Tigger]

Hmmm,

In straight line, cornering or both?

Just putting ideas out in the hope you'll find a clue

 

[sinnie92]

Handbrake on bring up clutch to make engine move and check for hitting/touching/fouling

 

[jinjur]

Hmmm,

In straight line, cornering or both?

Just putting ideas out in the hope you'll find a clue

Straight line buddy.......example.....this morning on the M1 (facking traffic ) very stop start, bumper to bumper scenario.

Every time I start off i can feel the knocking/rattling when starting off.

Then, get clear of the traffic and start driving normally over some really bad roads and there are NO NOISES from the suspension or steering

Handbrake on bring up clutch to make engine move and check for hitting/touching/fouling

Tried this before I posted here bud.

To pretty extreme extents as well

Not one piece of contact at all.

None.



Tell me this. I am thinking about what could vibrate in this scenario.

What about driveshafts/CV's......could these vibrate in this manner?

A