Throttle Bodies question.

[mwn11]

In the next 6-12 months i will hopefully be in the position to buy a new car.

Had my 182 for 3 years now and would possibly get another RS clio.

My question is for around a similar price should i look at a 197 or a throttle bodied 1*2.

I am only doing around 6k miles a year (Hence the 182 only just about to tick 35k) so fuel economy doesn't really play a part, and neither does long journeys or comfort.

What would the benefits of getting a 197 over a 'bodied 1*2 be? And has anybody else made this switch? Can you tell a difference in quality in a 197?

 

[Martin.]

'bodied 182 over a 197 all day long.

When you say should you look for a bodied 182, why don't you just put a kit on your current car?

 

[mwn11]

Did think that but for the price of it all i could think you could buy one already done (if you were to get it new from a garage).

There is a cam'd and 'bodied ph1 for sale for £3800 in the for sale section atm.

Kind of want rid of my car aswell now haha, its CAT D and paintwork isnt great. Going to break it when i want rid i think.

 

[Martin.]

Oh yeah well if you don't want your car then no point in pouring money into it. I suggested that route in a bid to be able to keep the same car you know and have had for years.

I've seen that PH1, looks really decent.

 

[mwn11]

Yeah if the car was mint id have no problem doing that. I think economically though to get it into a mint state it would cost wayyy too much

 

[Fletcher]

1*2 on ITB's over a 197 all day long.

 

[Cub.]

1*2 on ITB's over a 197 all day long.

Fletch is right on the money.

 

[Dan519]

I'd have an ITB'd mk2 over a standard mk3, but I'm building an ITB'd mk3 so who am I to talk I should be the first person in the UK to own in succession and daily drive a mk1, mk2 and mk3 on ITBs when I get it finished

 

[mwn11]

Reliability wise, I'm guessing there shouldn't be any difference?

 

[mwn11]

I'd have an ITB'd mk2 over a standard mk3, but I'm building an ITB'd mk3 so who am I to talk I should be the first person in the UK to own in succession and daily drive a mk1, mk2 and mk3 on ITBs when I get it finished

​Jelousy :'(

 

[cliokid182]

there is alot of people goin for itb's atm and doin turbo's aswell ......... has everyone just come into cash or something??

Also seen that phase 1 for sale on itbs im really shocked no one has taken it yet i have thought about buying it aswell, but dont think the mrs would appriciate it lol

 

[gez 172]

I'd have an ITB'd mk2 over a standard mk3, but I'm building an ITB'd mk3 so who am I to talk I should be the first person in the UK to own in succession and daily drive a mk1, mk2 and mk3 on ITBs when I get it finished

Who did Ben_R1's Clio 197 ITB's? His is up for sale atm

 

[Craig Ed]

there is alot of people goin for itb's atm and doin turbo's aswell ......... has everyone just come into cash or something??

Also seen that phase 1 for sale on itbs im really shocked no one has taken it yet i have thought about buying it aswell, but dont think the mrs would appriciate it lol

I notice this too. A lot of boost and itb talk. Itb,s do sound amazing.

 

[Chip-mk1]

ITB's are a nice simple way to get some modest gains but I think most people if they go in a properly setup boosted 1*2 will decide its better to be blown than to suck.

Turbo 197 will be my next clio I suspect, had bodies ones and built them for other people and I dont dislike them but the lag is a bit much and for trackdays its handy to have pace on the straights as well as the bends as you arent allowed to overtake in the bends on most days I do and on an ITB thats your only chance if you are up against some other moderately quick cars.

All depends what you want to use the car for though really, 197 is a very pleasant place to be IMHO but doesnt feel as raw as a decent mk2.

 

[cliokid182]

I notice this too. A lot of boost and itb talk. Itb,s do sound amazing.

I see you live in salisbury and have itb's i live inbetween Andover and Sailsbury and have 438's we should meet up some time

 

[Craig Ed]

I see you live in salisbury and have itb's i live inbetween Andover and Sailsbury and have 438's we should meet up some time

Sounds good. Will need too be around November time tho as I'm away for 6 ish months and the car is sorn

 

[mwn11]

had bodies ones and built them for other people and I dont dislike them but the lag is a bit much

Didn't realise there was any lag on bodies?

 

[Chip-mk1]

Didn't realise there was any lag on bodies?

Sorry perhaps didnt make that obvious enough it was a bit tongue in cheek.

I mean that up till the rev limiter mate it feels laggy once you have driven a turbo one, you sit there waiting for 300lbft of torque to arrive and it never does


But reality is what little torque you do get (a poultry 170-180ftlbs realistically, so not even 20% more than a good standard engine) is indeed instant like you are thinking it should be.


Apologies for the confusion and I hope that clears it up

 

[Filippo]

Potentially dumb question: can you have both ITB's and a turbo? Has it been done? I'd surmise that putting ITB's on a turbo-charged car would be relatively pointless - but has anyone had ITB's and then gone a step further and banged in a turbo?

 

[Chip-mk1]

Potentially dumb question: can you have both ITB's and a turbo? Has it been done? I'd surmise that putting ITB's on a turbo-charged car would be relatively pointless - but has anyone had ITB's and then gone a step further and banged in a turbo?

Ive mapped a few cars done like that, but TBH its a bit of a mare to get the transient fuelling right, its better to use something like an RS2, where it has the advantages in terms of runner layout for ITBS but has a single throttle so that the plenum still sends a meaningful MAP signal.

This is my take on it for my old Nova engine, which made 550-600bhp pretty effortlessly:

Its basically a set of Jenvey throttle bodies but minus the actual throttle plates, and then a single throttle before the plenum, at full throttle it flows exactly the same as it would with the plates by the head, but it makes drivability a lot easier to map for as the ECU can see more accurately what is happening.
If you use bodies instead of how i did it then it wont make you a single extra bhp or lbft but it will give you a quicker throttle response but only if using an ECU that is capable of understanding the setup and even then its slightly compromised TBH unless you go for something really high end. Dont expect some mickey mouse omex 600 to cope with it!

 

[mwn11]

Sorry perhaps didnt make that obvious enough it was a bit tongue in cheek.

I mean that up till the rev limiter mate it feels laggy once you have driven a turbo one, you sit there waiting for 300lbft of torque to arrive and it never does


But reality is what little torque you do get (a poultry 170-180ftlbs realistically, so not even 20% more than a good standard engine) is indeed instant like you are thinking it should be.


Apologies for the confusion and I hope that clears it up

Understood haha.

The only turbo car ive ever driven is my familys diesel TT so i have yet to experience boost properly.

 

[Ph1 Tom]

Boost is very hard to compete with. It costs though

 

[Chip-mk1]

Boost is very hard to compete with. It costs though

It costs, but a LOT less than trying to get any really meaningful gain out of ITBs.

Also, for the same power level boost is a lot more reliable than ITBs will be.

Build a 280bhp engine both ways, and as well as the boosted one costing a fraction of the money to build the boosted one will happily do 20K miles and just need a freshen up, the ITB one will be lucky to do 2K miles.


With ITBs the moment you want to get past what the standard pistons can do (210-220bhp sort of ballpark really) you are onto a forged engine, but for boost you can do 260bhp quite happily on a nearly standard engine.

 

[Ph1 Tom]

For a genuinely quick car yes it's much cheaper. No denying that.

My Fiesta with n/a zetec and a short gearbox felt fast enough with 814kg including me as driver and a full tank of fuel and the interior. That was 195bhp and 150lbft. With the Clio the same figures won't feel very quick, it's got another 300kg on top. Boost required!

 

[Chip-mk1]

For a genuinely quick car yes it's much cheaper. No denying that.

My Fiesta with n/a zetec and a short gearbox felt fast enough with 814kg including me as driver and a full tank of fuel and the interior. That was 195bhp and 150lbft. With the Clio the same figures won't feel very quick, it's got another 300kg on top. Boost required!

I tend to think of roughly (include weight of driver / passenger):


150bhp per tonne = ok for getting started on trackdays, but you'll get stuck behind people a lot and frustrated if your car handles well so you catch them in the bends but then cant get past them on the straights and arent allowed to overtake them on the bends
(e.g Standard 172)
At this level on medium speed bends after a short straight you may find your car is so slow you cant enjoy the corner as the car cant accelerate to the speed you need to in order for it to feel like a corner

175bhp per tonne = At least you can pass most normal cars just about on a long straight, but still pretty hard work
(e.g throttle bodies 172 or RS2 and a set of 197 cams, hot cams on standard inlet just about)
At this level on high speed bends after a short straight you may find your car is so slow you cant enjoy the corner as the car cant accelerate to the speed you need to in order for it to feel like a corner

200bhp per tonne = Will pass most normal cars relatively easy on the straights so little chance of ending up too stuck behind someone too often
(e.g as above but stripped right out, or bodies plus cams, or low pressure turbo)
At this level on very high speed bends after a short straight you may find your car is so slow you cant enjoy the corner as the car cant accelerate to the speed you need to in order for it to feel like a corner

250bhp per tonne = Starting to actually be a fast car, should be able to get past M3's and the like
(e.g low pressure turbo and stripped, or mega lightweight cars with bodies and cams like the burspeed, or a high pressure turbo)
At this level I cant think of any bends on uk tracks you wont have enough power to really exploit your cars handling by getting upto the max speed it can go through them at.

More than that = TBH the extra pace now only really helps in the middle of long straights as you cant really use it coming out of corners very well anymore and as per above its not really needed to get you upto speed on the way into bends either.
Ideal if you want to race people down dual carriageways etc, but in a FWD hatch on track its not really any advantage over the 250bhp or so mark really.


If you do want to go for something like 300bhp per tonne, I would do it by having 300bhp and stripping the car, rather than having 400bhp and having to have huge brakes etc

 

[Munson]

My heap is somewhere around the 260/ton mark, and I'd classify it as fast. Always has the ability to excite. I can only imagine what the likes of 500/ton feel like.

 

[Chip-mk1]

My heap is somewhere around the 260/ton mark, and I'd classify it as fast. Always has the ability to excite. I can only imagine what the likes of 500/ton feel like.

My nova with me in it and some fuel was around 1150kg on the old engine, and in the 550-600 region, so more or less spot on the 500bhp per tonne (same as a veryon IIRC) and that was certainly very sprightly, Ive driven a couple of other cars with similar, like an over 700bhp escort cosworth for example, and a stripped 600bhp 3 door cosworth, and again the same thing they were very fast indeed.

On a track though, unless its a hugely well handling car (ie not a fwd hatchback im talking rwd race car or 4wd and full slicks etc) its a bit pointless having that sort of bhp per tonne IMHO, as there is just such a tiny portion of the track you can actually use it on anyway and it costs a fortune in fuel and brakes etc only to have such a small amount of timewhere its really anymore fun, not worth it.

 

[Munson]

TBF though, people often quote "same bhp per ton as this or that" but once reasonable speeds are reached, raw power comes into play.

Not knocking your Nova at all, or even similar cars. They must feel like a bullet, but they don't keep pulling to 250mph whilst feeling like you're sitting in a church on a Sunday morning lol.

 

[Chip-mk1]

TBF though, people often quote "same bhp per ton as this or that" but once reasonable speeds are reached, raw power comes into play.

Not knocking your Nova at all, or even similar cars. They must feel like a bullet, but they don't keep pulling to 250mph whilst feeling like you're sitting in a church on a Sunday morning lol.

Agreed, after about 170mph when I changed into 6th gear the acceleration in my nova was probably pretty poor, must say I never tried giving it large in sixth but I would wager that probably it was only quick through the first 5 gears.

Ive no place I would ever want to do 200 anyway though TBH, top speed runs dont really interest me and on a track you dont get fast enough for aerodynamics to be a big deal

 

[Jay Payne]

^Worst 'my car is batsh1t fast' post ever

 

[Chip-mk1]

Lol. Can't really discuss that car on that previous spec engine without it being that tone cause it makes anything most people have been in look silly tbh mate. My Clio turbo is like a milk float by comparison. LoL.

 

[Jay Payne]

I can imagine

 

[Ph1 Tom]

Don't want to know what a Nova is like at 170mph! My Mk2 Fiesta at a genuine 140mph was quite a scary place to be. In my Focus its nothing!

 

[Chip-mk1]

Its not something you'd want to do for long TBH, front feels very light, especially with the engine in the back.

My clio at those speeds actually feels quite a lot more stable than most people would expect I reckon but Im sure the engine wouldnt last long if held pinned like that, its not mapped with being held back like that in mind, you have to be a lot more conservative if you want to hold something flat out and not let the revs increase compared to something that will only be used flat out while it accelerates, you could actually hear a tiny bit of knock on my car on the rollers I went to for a rolling road day when they had the load set so high it really held the car back, but it does no such thing in normal use as on track it only ever gets to 150 or so and it still accelerates quite well at that speed. The heat buildup for it held at 7500rpm on boost for a few miles though would be mental and im sure it would melt I would need a much more conservative map or a different exhaust manifold.

 

[mwn11]

Hmm time to start saving pennies then and will keep an eye out for any nice cars that come up for sale.

I will have to try and find somebody local nearer the time with a 'bodied car and ask to sit in one ride. Only bodied clio ive been in is Porkie's around bedford and that was insane but not sure how that would relate to a less "extreme" car haha.