Clio 172 ph2 / bikes
Alrighty guys,
Finally put enough time on the brembos post conversion to update.
Brembo conversion is great but everyones right when they say its overkill and the standard brakes are plenty on good pads and fluid. My only justification is that a got a good set of 197 calipers locally for 200, tidy but powdered them myself, conversion was on the cheaper side but costs do creep up. Especially if you need to source wheels.
My setup:
-15x7 team dynamic prorace 3 (et35 I believe)
-Not needed for clearance but 16mm wheel spacers.
-K12 micra master
-Freshly powdercoated and rebult 197 brembos (skimmed for clearance)
-280mm dimple/slotted rotors
-Genuine brembo pads
-Braided lines, think it was prolines adaption kit.
-Mike's superlight 280mm brackets.
-Fog light vents and deflector plates.
-Rear pattern calipers on ebc discs with cheap apec pads.
-Braided rear axle to caliper.
15" wheel options to clear the brembos are very limited but when researching ive seen rota slipstreams, pro race 1.2, pro race 3, evo corse, and speedline 2118s clear. Cant speak to ET or required spacers.
Only issue i have is a bit of an intermittent squeal i havent shaken off with the usual tricks but apparently brembos can be like that and it'll settle. (New hardware, rubber pad shims, anti squeal goo, genuine brembo pads, chamfered the pads, broken in properly on new discs, scrubbed to remove any glazing) it's just harmonics but damn it's loud and Dont want to change oht new pads and discs for the sake of a squeal. Suggestions welcome.
So taking advantage of the 1999 Nissan, Renault, Mitsubishi Alliance there's a few options easily obtainable and much cheaper than RHD 197/200 master but for the lolz i opted to use a k12 micra convertable master cylinder, it's 23.8mm to suit the 197 brembos, was low miles and a genuine item rather than use pattern parts. Bit of an educated guestimation, cross referencing, deduction and ultimately a low cost experiment.
Pattern parts frequently put these together as fitting the same models. It's worth noting that when compared to the 197 master they use different seal kits but they're likely to be the same castings and parts on oem.
NISSAN:46010-AX720
RENAULT:77 01 208 402
A.B.S.:41314
ASHIKA:68-01-151
ATE:010791
ATE:03.2123-2923.3
DELPHI:LM80586
FTE:H23908271
HELLA:355503351
JAPANPARTS
F-151
JAPKO:68151
LPR:6181
NIPPARTS:N3101127
TRISCAN:813010129
TRWML498
Obviously verify for yourself what that correlates with but: k12 micra, e11 note, juke, modus, grand modus and clio3. Personally id rather use genuine used parts over pattern replacements. There will be other recipes for this too.
I've used the 1*2 brake booster, not sure if there's benefit to using anything else.
--
Physically comparing this to the 2 port 1*2 master they're very similar however here's some considerations.
the micra (etc) master has 2 m10x1 ports rather than the 1*2's m12x1 and m10x1 outlets so you need to adapt your m12 with the thicker hardline down to m10... Which is a bigger pain in the ass than you'd initially think (don't think you can get m10 ferrules to fit the larger line) or you can carefully drill and tap the port on the master up to m12x1. It's the legit way of doing things but If you're cackhanded or inexperienced get a machine shop etc to do it, we're talking about brakes/safety afterall. It would be very easy to go squint or too deep. You can use air in the smaller port to stop swarf getting to the seals too.
Another point to mention is mechanical lash, when comparing the 2 i found the micra master to take up an extra 0.8mm of lash. This is could be a measuring or manufacturing discrepancy however when bolted up there's still freeplay as you'd want to ensure it doesn't engage the brakes causing drag or creating an impossible bleed situation. Makes system a bit more connected and unfortunately There was no adjustment on the rod inside my booster to further set it up.
I found that inside the outlet ports of the micra master that the hole diamater into the piston's cylinder to be nominally smaller than that of the 1*2. By eyeball call it 1-1.5mm. I anticipated opening these out if necessary once tested on the car but i feel no need to mess with it. Possibly get a quicker bite if fluid moved quicker... but I'm not clued up on hydraulics beyond ratio.
Finally, like the 197/200 master you need to use the 1*2 brake fluid reserviour so need to swap the 1*2 seals across to suit it.
--
Also worth saying that the 1*2 and 197 use different piston sizes in the rear calipers. 1*2 being a bit smaller which changes the hydraulic ratio which will help gain a firmer pedal feel on these cars.
I can't compare the micra master to that of the 1*2 or 197 master with brembos but after a members suggestion (thanks man) of an abs bleed due to poor pedal feel and once the pads were bed in too the brakes are savage. Modulations good, bites high enough and pedal is firm. Ideally i'd like a little bit more initial bite which i should get when i switch to fun pads but it's a strong setup as is.
I know a lot of people say the master swap is unnecessary but brakes feel so much better when you run an appropriately sized master. Too small and you get loads of pedal travel, too big and it'll feel wooden (dunno if wooden translates well to a brake boosted setup) . With messing around with bikes over the years i reckon you can go over or under bore by about 1.5mm to tweak ratio to taste and the difference in feel at the extremes of that 3mm range is massive. Obviously talking about feel here not braking power.
Good fun messing around, i'll chuck a couple pics up when i remember and hope the info helps someone out.
Finally put enough time on the brembos post conversion to update.
Brembo conversion is great but everyones right when they say its overkill and the standard brakes are plenty on good pads and fluid. My only justification is that a got a good set of 197 calipers locally for 200, tidy but powdered them myself, conversion was on the cheaper side but costs do creep up. Especially if you need to source wheels.
My setup:
-15x7 team dynamic prorace 3 (et35 I believe)
-Not needed for clearance but 16mm wheel spacers.
-K12 micra master
-Freshly powdercoated and rebult 197 brembos (skimmed for clearance)
-280mm dimple/slotted rotors
-Genuine brembo pads
-Braided lines, think it was prolines adaption kit.
-Mike's superlight 280mm brackets.
-Fog light vents and deflector plates.
-Rear pattern calipers on ebc discs with cheap apec pads.
-Braided rear axle to caliper.
15" wheel options to clear the brembos are very limited but when researching ive seen rota slipstreams, pro race 1.2, pro race 3, evo corse, and speedline 2118s clear. Cant speak to ET or required spacers.
Only issue i have is a bit of an intermittent squeal i havent shaken off with the usual tricks but apparently brembos can be like that and it'll settle. (New hardware, rubber pad shims, anti squeal goo, genuine brembo pads, chamfered the pads, broken in properly on new discs, scrubbed to remove any glazing) it's just harmonics but damn it's loud and Dont want to change oht new pads and discs for the sake of a squeal. Suggestions welcome.
So taking advantage of the 1999 Nissan, Renault, Mitsubishi Alliance there's a few options easily obtainable and much cheaper than RHD 197/200 master but for the lolz i opted to use a k12 micra convertable master cylinder, it's 23.8mm to suit the 197 brembos, was low miles and a genuine item rather than use pattern parts. Bit of an educated guestimation, cross referencing, deduction and ultimately a low cost experiment.
Pattern parts frequently put these together as fitting the same models. It's worth noting that when compared to the 197 master they use different seal kits but they're likely to be the same castings and parts on oem.
NISSAN:46010-AX720
RENAULT:77 01 208 402
A.B.S.:41314
ASHIKA:68-01-151
ATE:010791
ATE:03.2123-2923.3
DELPHI:LM80586
FTE:H23908271
HELLA:355503351
JAPANPARTS
F-151JAPKO:68151
LPR:6181
NIPPARTS:N3101127
TRISCAN:813010129
TRW
ML498Obviously verify for yourself what that correlates with but: k12 micra, e11 note, juke, modus, grand modus and clio3. Personally id rather use genuine used parts over pattern replacements. There will be other recipes for this too.
I've used the 1*2 brake booster, not sure if there's benefit to using anything else.
--
Physically comparing this to the 2 port 1*2 master they're very similar however here's some considerations.
the micra (etc) master has 2 m10x1 ports rather than the 1*2's m12x1 and m10x1 outlets so you need to adapt your m12 with the thicker hardline down to m10... Which is a bigger pain in the ass than you'd initially think (don't think you can get m10 ferrules to fit the larger line) or you can carefully drill and tap the port on the master up to m12x1. It's the legit way of doing things but If you're cackhanded or inexperienced get a machine shop etc to do it, we're talking about brakes/safety afterall. It would be very easy to go squint or too deep. You can use air in the smaller port to stop swarf getting to the seals too.
Another point to mention is mechanical lash, when comparing the 2 i found the micra master to take up an extra 0.8mm of lash. This is could be a measuring or manufacturing discrepancy however when bolted up there's still freeplay as you'd want to ensure it doesn't engage the brakes causing drag or creating an impossible bleed situation. Makes system a bit more connected and unfortunately There was no adjustment on the rod inside my booster to further set it up.
I found that inside the outlet ports of the micra master that the hole diamater into the piston's cylinder to be nominally smaller than that of the 1*2. By eyeball call it 1-1.5mm. I anticipated opening these out if necessary once tested on the car but i feel no need to mess with it. Possibly get a quicker bite if fluid moved quicker... but I'm not clued up on hydraulics beyond ratio.
Finally, like the 197/200 master you need to use the 1*2 brake fluid reserviour so need to swap the 1*2 seals across to suit it.
--
Also worth saying that the 1*2 and 197 use different piston sizes in the rear calipers. 1*2 being a bit smaller which changes the hydraulic ratio which will help gain a firmer pedal feel on these cars.
I can't compare the micra master to that of the 1*2 or 197 master with brembos but after a members suggestion (thanks man) of an abs bleed due to poor pedal feel and once the pads were bed in too the brakes are savage. Modulations good, bites high enough and pedal is firm. Ideally i'd like a little bit more initial bite which i should get when i switch to fun pads but it's a strong setup as is.
I know a lot of people say the master swap is unnecessary but brakes feel so much better when you run an appropriately sized master. Too small and you get loads of pedal travel, too big and it'll feel wooden (dunno if wooden translates well to a brake boosted setup) . With messing around with bikes over the years i reckon you can go over or under bore by about 1.5mm to tweak ratio to taste and the difference in feel at the extremes of that 3mm range is massive. Obviously talking about feel here not braking power.
Good fun messing around, i'll chuck a couple pics up when i remember and hope the info helps someone out.
