throttle bodies

[Punter]

Hey, I'll try not to sound too stupid here; back in my honda days I had a friend who had itb's on his vti. They sounded great, added around 20-30bhp apparently and even tho they cost him the best part of 4 grand i'd have had some if i hadn't sold it!
I've been on the K-tec website and they've got a throttle body kit as I'm sure you know, but I'm confused; The kits I'd seen kicking around before all had that trumpet look thing, but this seems to have a filter at one end with air coming through that to feed all 4 cyinders (if my understanding of this is right, which it rarely is!). Does this make it an individual throttle body kit, or what? Would you still get that fantastic sound, which would be the real aim of it, otherwise i'd just f/I.
Any other companies you know that do these kits, or sites that people on here may have used to get hold of some, or at least talk to someone who knows their stuff?

thanks for any help this might get, cheers

 

[Englebert]

You can't see the trumpets because the induction system is covering it. Most of the time you would normally just have a big filter over the trumpets.

 

[len_beach]

If it is similar to GDI's demo car then it will be an enlarged throttle body. I don't think there will be an increase in noise as per ITB's as you aren't really changing the way the air is drawn into the engine.

Is there any real need for an enlarged throttle body as it isn't a point of restriction according to BenR.

I reckon a decent exhasut, decat, inlet match, 182 manifold (if you have a 172), panel filter and feed or Laxogen if you like burning money and remap would see you 190+, cams 200+. I wouldn't bother with much else TBH.

My 2p worth and probably wrong.

 

[Fred@BTM]

www.Yozzasport.co.uk
www.Angel-works.co.uk
www.hillpower.co.uk

 

[TheJesus]

I'd say BenR's wrong on that then, I've seen the larger single TB conversions using Jenvey stuff and the gains are pretty damn huge, certainly more than basic mods, cams and a remap. Add the single jenvey TB and your not far off ITB's for performance... still, the noise wont be anything similar or as good!

 

[Fred@BTM]

incorrect mr Jesus, you can easily achieve 300bhp through a stock sized body NA

the most i ever saw back in the days when we developed the Jenvey ETCC single body conversion, the most we saw with decent cams was 205 and around 170lbsft

BenR or a stock sized body managed 217 with a drastically moddified plenham

 

[TheJesus]

whats incorrect, you reading the right post Fred? lol

and easily achieve 300bhp on stock sized body, get real lad, that would be anything but easy or cheap for that matter... otherwise your Cup would be running vastly more than 245bhp on ITB's lol.

you developed a single Jenvey body conversion? or you mean a company you paid to do it, as that seems extremely poor, you can make around 200bhp and 175+lbs of torque on a standard engine with basic mods :S

 

[Fred@BTM]

yeah hence why we canned the project, all we were after was the cable throttle, but seeing as R-sport do a conversion theres no point in using Jenvey

when i say we, i mean we, we paid no one for the work thankyou very much!

and yes you can do 300bhp through a stock sized body

Formula renaults do 190bhp through a 26mm restrictor (F4R engine)

F3 F4R engine manage over 210bhp through a 26mm restrictor

so ner!!

 

[TheJesus]

that's probably where it went wrong then!

I never said you cant do that, I said it wouldn't be 'easy' or 'cheap'... which it wouldn't and wont, if it was that easy you would be doing it and we'd all be driving around in 240bhp race engined Clio's

 

[Fred@BTM]

well from your first uneducated statment my lad "I've seen the larger single TB conversions using Jenvey stuff and the gains are pretty damn huge"

i was mearly trying to inform you that you are incorrect, the throttle body has no restriction its the plenham, manifold and 90 elbow that are the problem

 

[Fred@BTM]

you can make around 200bhp and 175+lbs of torque on a standard engine with basic mods :S

i'd love to know what basic mods you're on about!

 

[The Hoff]

^Turbonator I guess!

 

[len_beach]

Maybe my list above are the ones Jesus is referring to as basic, although I don't think my wallet would class them as basic.

 

[Fred@BTM]

i would agree with your list Len

 

[TheJesus]

well from your first uneducated statment my lad "I've seen the larger single TB conversions using Jenvey stuff and the gains are pretty damn huge"

i was mearly trying to inform you that you are incorrect, the throttle body has no restriction its the plenham, manifold and 90 elbow that are the problem

230bhp is more than healthy I'd say, should be ready soon as well. be interesting to compare against it

... and the basic mods, you'll need to speak to Chris, it's his car that made that with breathing mods and a remap!

 

[BenR]

K20A civic typeR engines used in grpn rallying make 245bhp on a single stock body, and use all stock factory parts.

So you can roll around all day with 240 if you want.

 

[matty w]

them 70mm throttle bodies are off 300bhp NA touring cars that rev to 10.000rpm totally overkill for a 200bhp clio,my mate who's got an efi R5 turbo runs a 54mm throttle body off a fiesta turbo and that was doing 13sec quarter miles when he was still running it in

 

[Fred@BTM]

64mm on the touring cars

 

[matty w]

some of the european touring cars and maybe others run a 70mm body

 

[Fred@BTM]

nope ETCC/BTCC regulation body is the Jenvey 64mm, now known as the S2000
http://www.jenvey.co.uk look under throttle bodies and find this part number SFGE1/64

 

[BenR]

and they are limited to 8500rpm.

 

[cK]

Hey, I'll try not to sound too stupid here; back in my honda days I had a friend who had itb's on his vti. They sounded great, added around 20-30bhp apparently and even tho they cost him the best part of 4 grand i'd have had some if i hadn't sold it!
I've been on the K-tec website and they've got a throttle body kit as I'm sure you know, but I'm confused; The kits I'd seen kicking around before all had that trumpet look thing, but this seems to have a filter at one end with air coming through that to feed all 4 cyinders (if my understanding of this is right, which it rarely is!). Does this make it an individual throttle body kit, or what? Would you still get that fantastic sound, which would be the real aim of it, otherwise i'd just f/I.
Any other companies you know that do these kits, or sites that people on here may have used to get hold of some, or at least talk to someone who knows their stuff?

thanks for any help this might get, cheers

http://www.yozzasport.co.uk/store/p..._182_172_cup_trophy_throttle_body_conversions

http://www.greydevilindustries.com/products/product.asp?id=20740

http://www.angel-works.co.uk/service_tbconversion.php

All of the above companies do the conversions as well as some others, stan* on this forum does them too and I beleive would probably work out the cheapest. I'm sure he can do it for around £2995 but he would have to clarify that.

The k-tec kit (http://www.k-tecracing.com/show_product.asp?id=1565) is still still the same princaple but rather than having 4 trumpets with a sausage filter over all of them you would have an enclosed cover and one air filter on the end of it. I don't know whether there will be much difference in performance between an enclosed itb induction and an open one. Maybe one of the geeks off here will inform you.

 

[Batman]

ohh i cant wait to get tb's maybe in around a year ugh i want them now!

 

[ja.jack]

Don't do it Batman!

The tuners on here will promise you the stars [with the conivance of the forum bosses] The real deal is rough running , bad consumption, and minimal power increase. That was boddies I was refering to.

In Germany where I lived/worked, they have a big tuning industry but are not allowed by law to make outrageous claims for their goods.

Bossy b******s? Yes, they are. But they produced the Audi quattro when we were happy to drive the Austin Allegro.
,

 

[Fred@BTM]

Don't do it Batman!

The tuners on here will promise you the stars [with the conivance of the forum bosses] The real deal is rough running , bad consumption, and minimal power increase. That was boddies I was refering to.

In Germany where I lived/worked, they have a big tuning industry but are not allowed by law to make outrageous claims for their goods.

Bossy b******s? Yes, they are. But they produced the Audi quattro when we were happy to drive the Austin Allegro.
,

only if you're a cowboy outfit!

 

[ja.jack]

Name them if you dare.

 

[Fred@BTM]

i'll leave the slanging match to other people thanks!

 

[ahmet]

Don't do it Batman!

The tuners on here will promise you the stars [with the conivance of the forum bosses] The real deal is rough running , bad consumption, and minimal power increase. That was boddies I was refering to.

In Germany where I lived/worked, they have a big tuning industry but are not allowed by law to make outrageous claims for their goods.

Bossy b******s? Yes, they are. But they produced the Audi quattro when we were happy to drive the Austin Allegro.
,

what do you know about bodies!!

 

[ahmet]

chris k didnt you have 200 sx?what happened

 

[TheJesus]

Don't do it Batman!

The tuners on here will promise you the stars [with the conivance of the forum bosses] The real deal is rough running , bad consumption, and minimal power increase. That was boddies I was refering to.

In Germany where I lived/worked, they have a big tuning industry but are not allowed by law to make outrageous claims for their goods.

Bossy b******s? Yes, they are. But they produced the Audi quattro when we were happy to drive the Austin Allegro.
,

what a load of shite. put your 182 up against my car and you'd see the 'minimal' difference. and 350 miles to a full tank I'd say is pretty good thanks but yeah, you know best
:clown:

 

[bendee]

id like to see that actually, see what the throttle bodies will actually do for your car over standard.
all the threads ive seen on these conversions ive never seen 0-60 times top end speeds or 1/4mile times what are the general figures with the conversions?

 

[stan*]

Don't do it Batman!

The tuners on here will promise you the stars [with the conivance of the forum bosses] The real deal is rough running , bad consumption, and minimal power increase. That was boddies I was refering to.

,

I can guarantee if I (or other "tuners" on this site...IF done properly), fitted a throttle body installation, power/torque would definately increase, the engine WOULD NOT run rough, and fuel consumption would only be increased on full load.

When the bodies and ECU are set up to the finest degree, as they shoulkd be...there are no problems what so ever..FACT.

 

[cK]

I did have a 200sx but came back to the trusty clio and purchased a cup.

My old bodied car ran a 0-60 of 5.7 secs but I don't think that was running correctly at the time. TheJesus who has it now has had it remapped and its apparently running more power so it's most definately quicker.

Torque steer is a bit of a b*****d though.

 

[matty w]

and they are limited to 8500rpm.

its actually 8499.99 to the nearest decimal point,i was just throwing rough figures off just to give people an idea

 

[ahmet]

I did have a 200sx but came back to the trusty clio and purchased a cup.

My old bodied car ran a 0-60 of 5.7 secs but I don't think that was running correctly at the time. TheJesus who has it now has had it remapped and its apparently running more power so it's most definately quicker.

Torque steer is a bit of a b*****d though.

do you remember all our arguements about clios and 200 sx:rasp:

 

[GordonD]

There are fundamental rules of everything. One of the fundamental rules of engineering is that easy simple solutions can do one thing right, but it usually takes complicated solutions to simultaneously solve multiple problems that have conflicting engineering requirements. And that complicated solutions are hard, ie, expensive, to get right and to keep working properly, and unreliable.

Suspension is one of those problems. Its easy to engineer a suspension that gives great handling on smooth roads. Or one that gives good ride. Or one that give good handling on bumpy roads. But trying to design one that does everything well?

And engines are another one of those problems. Economy, easy. High power output, easy. Driveability, easy. But an economical, high-out and driveable engine? Sure you can put separate throttle bodies on it to get an induction system that provides the maximum possible horsepower. But good driveability and good economy require high gas speeds and turbulence at low revs and low throttle openings to keep fuel mixed uniformly, and that makes high output at high revs and high throttle openings damn difficult to engineer.

The idea of a one-make aftermarket tuning shop based around the skills and experience of one individual being able to take a simple solution, like independent throttle bodies, and have it to a whole lot of things with conflicting requirements well - power, driveability and economy - is laughable. If the individual was that good he'd be somewhere where he could make his fame and fortune like chief engineer of a F1 team. If anyone could do it, everyone would be. But it takes the resources and size and range of skills of car companies and top racing teams, and even then they've got to make compromises in one direction to get improvements in others.

There are ways to get all those things together on one car. But that requires complication. And complication adds to cost and subtracts from reliability, so car manufacturers can't be bothered, especially when they can get power by other cheaper routes like simply increasing displacement. And racing teams only require one thing, power, so they can't be bothered.

 

[fmp_]

i will be adding throttle bodies to my car in 2007.

had them on my saxo VTS, it was setup properly, ran better than a standard car.

like its been said, if its setup properly, and mapped well, it should run like a dream.

its only when you start adding really wild cams when you start to lose idle and driveability (usually due to the high rpm power band)

 

[matty w]

i no people on here will disagree but i've been told by people that throttle bodies will work well with the standard 172 cams as they arnt a bad profile standard

 

[stan*]

And engines are another one of those problems. Economy, easy. High power output, easy. Driveability, easy. But an economical, high-out and driveable engine? Sure you can put separate throttle bodies on it to get an induction system that provides the maximum possible horsepower. But good driveability and good economy require high gas speeds and turbulence at low revs and low throttle openings to keep fuel mixed uniformly, and that makes high output at high revs and high throttle openings damn difficult to engineer.

you arent making much sense there mate. power density and economy are both influenced in the same way by cylinder motion.

whats that to got to do with TB's....increasing the number of throttle plates on an induction system is fundamentaly increasing VE of the whole intake....hence the gain ALL OVER, when they are sized correctly. Sure pulse tuning etc comes into play, but not really for what we are talking about here.

The idea of a one-make aftermarket tuning shop based around the skills and experience of one individual being able to take a simple solution, like independent throttle bodies, and have it to a whole lot of things with conflicting requirements well - power, driveability and economy - is laughable. If the individual was that good he'd be somewhere where he could make his fame and fortune like chief engineer of a F1 team. If anyone could do it, everyone would be. But it takes the resources and size and range of skills of car companies and top racing teams, and even then they've got to make compromises in one direction to get improvements in others.

Note I said "fuel economy is only effected atn full load conditions". This is fact. Its basic fuelling strategies...max power is only required at full load, hence fuelling requirments to give max power only need to be met at full load...therefore below full load, the engine can be ran lean of stoic to increase BSFC. If you have any expeerience of engine calibration, you should know this. you are trying to make this more complicated than it really is.

The "problems" you are trying to highlight, are when an engine is being tuned solely for power density (note, in this thread we are only talking about ITB's...nothing else). This includes revised compression ratio, cam design, engine speeds, geometry etc etc etc. THIS is when the major pay off in terms of drivability and economy really come into play...this is when we start moving away from economy and converging towards reaching the max potential of an engines output..and this is when people should understand its "horses for courses. i.e. you shouldnt be building an engine with the intent of max overall output, and expect it to drive fine round town.

but, this wasnt the topic of this thread..you brought this about by trying to make the discussion more complicated than it really is.

 

[Fred@BTM]

i no people on here will disagree but i've been told by people that throttle bodies will work well with the standard 172 cams as they arnt a bad profile standard

yes i agree, Roamer the first person who developed the 172 TB's with Jenvey, his car was on std cams and it went like the clappers, 212bhp and 170lbsft (from memory)

40bhp gain shown from the same rollers (Power Engineering Uxbridge, and yes it did run 172bhp before any work!)