throttle bodies

[Icarus]

as for the 3 maps thing. please explain to me how you map an engine for economy? any engine runs at its most economical when it is at lambda 1. so since an omex will be running full lambda control at anything under 70% throttle which will cause it to run at lambda 1 im a little confused how you believe that can be improved upon? but i await to be educated???

You await to be educated? Well you certainly need it but don't think I'm doing it for free sunshine. EFI101 might be a decent start because quite frankly you couldn't be more wrong with the above statement!!

Cheers
M

 

[sideways danny]

The OMEX doesn't either.

does. optional fitment.

 

[Fred@BTM]

you do of course realize that you have just completely contradicted yourself don't you. a couple posts ago you where saying how your kits will be better as you can make all your own brackets and make the install 'much neater' which would be a HUGE amount of work..not forgetting the fact you have just said your kit will be well over a thousand pounds more expensive! and now your saying that a kit 'in your opinion' should be able to be fitted by anyone right? so please explain to me how fitting a kit that will cost more money and needs loads of messing about is 'easier' than connecting 2 wires into the standard Renault loom and fitting a fully comprehensive kit that can be fitted well inside a day 'by anyone who has half a brain' by following a very clear installation manual.

by using a connector loom, you haven't got to cut a thing, and i'm not selling a kit to people so they can fit it DIY, i never said that, i said you can buy the emerald kit and do the work DIY, or you can come to me and i'll do you a ITB conversion my way

the 3 map thing - i'm by no means an engine mapper, never have claimed to be, the point is you can have 3 maps, like i said one for 95RON, one for 98RON, and the third can be used for whatever you like for example "garage mode" with a 2000rpm rev limiter or a motorway/girlfriend mode with a 3500rpm limit that's as economical as possible

big respect for doing your kit, its what the market needed, and you'll be doing well from it, but in my eyes you could've done it a nicer way, but that's my view, all your customers seem happy which is good

 

[Andy GDI]

Fred, appreciate your comments.

The plug in loom we supply is infact better quality than the OE one, which of course is done to a serious budget.... amazing how inexpensive they can make it..

we looked at the option of using a loom adapter, but due to certain criteria and types of car etc etc it was far better to use our loom, and its certainly better than the old way of wiring it into the std loom. (still ok, but very time consuming, and cant be easily done at home or by someone wanting to fit the kit themselves or overseas where support is harder)

in this market, and enviroment i cant see a reason to use multi maps. I take your point on the garage mode thing (for that we can add a system for limiting revs, etc etc if its needed, thats in the ECU anyhow).

Not sure on my thoughts on the 95, 98 RON debate.... will have a think over the weekend on that one. But again as I said for the kit maps its ok to use either and the HP deficit is not very large on an NA car. Again though we can add a trim switch to allow the timing to be reduced a calculated amount if you want to use 95 instead of 98 etc etc.. However in our experience people don't remember to use the switch let alone switch maps via the laptop.

but its a valid discussion and quite interesting

 

[Fred@BTM]

nice one Andy, you should have a play around with ethanol when you get a chance, that's been working wonders in testing over here!

you know i'm a fussy sod! can you tell your disciples to pipe down, i'm not slating your kit here, far from it, jealousy is the best form of flatery and all that, i'm suggesting ways in which i think it can be improved upon/how i would improve upon it, excellent effort, but can be done better IN MY OPINION

the 3 map thing can be used for whatever which is a great feature, doesn't have to be just fuel related, can be garage mode, road mode, track mode (basically same map on all 3 just different limiters, the possibilities are huge)

 

[Andy GDI]

Tri fuel cars..... had one the other day at a show....

Bio Ethanol, Petrol and GAS!!! WHY! but then its what he was playing with.

I think constructive reviews are essential, how else can we learn as a business or in general.

By no means is everything perfect, but i think the kits discussed are excellent and offer the next level in the current market.

of course if your doing a 1 off and money is less of an issue there are all sorts of things you can do... totally hidden looms through the chassis etc.. (but for kits thats never going to happen as its not a good economics)

nice to get back to proper discussion rather than bitching.... as we are all getting older and theoretically growing up..... (yea right!! I still want a Quadbike!!)

Yes i know your a picky sod..... ;-)

 

[john182rs]

Sorry i know your lot are all going on about hiding the looms and making things look pretty, but seriously who wants there engine to look "pretty" next some one will be telling me they put fake diamonds on the trumpets spelling their name to look different.
I just see that as long as it does the job properly and works in the way that it should then what is the problem?

 

[Andy GDI]

individual tastes John.....

 

[Daz Clio Cup]

The OMEX doesn't either.

Depends which loom you have, I have a knock sensor on my OMEX 600, with the full loom, connected and working

 

[BenR]

jealousy is the best form of flatery and all that,

Imitation Fred.....imitation.

O jealousy! thou magnifier of trifles.

 

[BenR]

Knock control/protection at 'our' level is probably the biggest falsity and waste of time.

 

[Daz Clio Cup]

Knock control/protection at 'our' level is probably the biggest falsity and waste of time.

Correct me if i'm wrong, doesn't knock control protect against crap fuel etc (saves holes in pistons?)

Daz

 

[BenR]

Yes.

But for the average joe, its like trying to count the ticking seconds of the drummers watch at a SlipKnot concert.

 

[Icarus]

Yes.

But for the average joe, its like trying to count the ticking seconds of the drummers watch at a SlipKnot concert.

Spot on, absolutely, 100% correct.

Knock control can be a hugely important factor in efficency and performance but unless you have access to the OEM's data or the kit and equipment required to calibrate knock control effectively then you're wasting your time. Add to this the fact that most OEM knock sensors are only designed to provide a useable signal around the point of peak torque where combustion chamber pressures will (usualy) be highest - point of peak torque usualy being well below the area that most high performance engines will run at when being rung out on road or track, an OEM knock sensor setup will not protect you from too much spark/too much boost at high RPM as the sensor is effectively blinded by valve train (and other similar) noise.

OEM's get around the above to a certain extent as most OEM ECU's run adaption strategies based around if knock was present at the POPT/PCCP if you have the kind of resource an OEM has then you can scale this for RPM above the range of the sensor - although technicaly you shouldn't need to sometimes you want to to allow enhanced spark advance or boost hold at high RPM.

Really, really clever knock control using Ion sensing or similar allows you to go much further. Essentialy having proactive spark control coupled with knock control that rather than sitting there waiting for the det to occur will build its own spark advance map on a per cylinder basis, in some cases running more spark than the base map to improve efficeny and power. The best systems allow knock control/spark control on a per cylinder, per firing basis, couple this with what some of the big OEM's are working with/on at the moment in terms of direct valve actuation and direct injection and you can not only control the spark on a per cylinder, per firing basis but also the air mass inducted on a per cylinder, per firing basis - this coupled with the reduced pumping losses offered makes for one seriously efficent engine. The downside is it takes a team of 25 guys a year to calibrate it.

If you are using an OEM sensor on an OEM engine package then the best you can achieve with an aftermarket ECU is knock control on a par with the standard setup - which as discussed won't be useful at high RPM anyway. For the most part it is much easier to just cal the engine package correctly in the first place i.e. the most amount of spark/boost without det on the worst fuel it'll be run on.

Knock control is good but its not the be all and end all of saving an engine if something goes wrong - high RPM with a dodgy injector will still see a broken engine!

Cheers
M

 

[deltav]

You await to be educated? Well you certainly need it but don't think I'm doing it for free sunshine. EFI101 might be a decent start because quite frankly you couldn't be more wrong with the above statement!!

Cheers
M

well like i said.. i await to be educated. guess its a good thing that my job isnt mapping then. lol.
guess il leave ecu's to you then and i'll stick to what i do ok sunshine

 

[Fred@BTM]

i'll bow out at this point too! LOL thats beyond me!

 

[Andy GDI]

certainly I agree on NA engines

i think on boosted engines there is an argument for it, as the peak torque tends to be far lower (turbo, less so SC) than peak power.. and therefore as you say valve train or just sodding noisy engines covers up any discernible or useful knock.

its essentially provides "some" protection against overboost causing knock, but even then most properally scales and calibrated maps will cater for this with overfuel and heavily reduced timing outside of where the engine was designed to run (on the base map)... unexpected boost surge may also cause transient det which it may help with also...

but we are talking semantics here as Matt says calibrating it to any degree of usefulness within a scale that may be acceptable cost wise is likely to be prohibitive to most people.

an interesting discussion never the less

 

[Andy GDI]

to add, some OEM's (am thinking of Merc in this particular instance) ran one of their production engines into knock delibratly to create more power at low rpm.... the engine was det limited, but it causes no damage to the engine at that point and created the power they needed....

can think of quite a few engines that do that... usually older to be fair

 

[stan*]

certainly I agree on NA engines

i think on boosted engines there is an argument for it, as the peak torque tends to be far lower (turbo, less so SC) than peak power.. and therefore as you say valve train or just sodding noisy engines covers up any discernible or useful knock.

its essentially provides "some" protection against overboost causing knock, but even then most properally scales and calibrated maps will cater for this with overfuel and heavily reduced timing outside of where the engine was designed to run (on the base map)... unexpected boost surge may also cause transient det which it may help with also...

but we are talking semantics here as Matt says calibrating it to any degree of usefulness within a scale that may be acceptable cost wise is likely to be prohibitive to most people.

an interesting discussion never the less

Even then though, unless its on an individual cylinder basis, its not going to be ideal, detonation could/can still go undetected or take place unless you can trim individually.
Coolant paths, intake tracts, mechanical efficiency etc can all vary from cylinder to cylinder, making one cylinder more efficienct than another, or in real terms..different temps occur between cylinders, therefore susceptability to detonation changes.

The Emerald K3 offers individual cylinder trimming for ignition and injector pulse width to idealise these sort of problems.

 

[Fred@BTM]

GEMS can do individual trimming too, hardware wise they're the same as OMEX aren't they, just different software?? or am i wrong?

 

[stan*]

I thought they were "piggyback" units?

 

[Fred@BTM]

http://www.gems.co.uk/?content=pages&id=em36 the bloke at Autosport said its the same as an OMEX 710 with different software?

 

[Icarus]

The EM36 has CAN and uART for Telemetry so there will be some differences between that and a 710 but probably very similar hardware wise bar the missing bits.

The Gems X series stuff is pretty bloody good to be honest, it competes with our Pectel stuff quite succesfuly.

Cheers
M

 

[mini-valver]

Wish I'd have used Emerald now!

 

[Icarus]

Emerald is alright. It's still not perfect but it is a touch better than Vems ;-) MBE 992 would be perfect for yours. It's bomb proof and Cosworth use it for the Caterham lumps at the moment. Supports simple VVT too if required, got CAN on it as well so you can feed a dash/logger straight off it.

Cheers
M

 

[mini-valver]

Later in the year will be new managment with 'Mattdiscount' Bottom end and bodies. Absolutely skint at the minute, lol!

 

[Andy GDI]

the 710 does indeed have individual fuel and ign trims for each cyl, you of course need to actually read something to be able to trim it... i.e. individual EGT and AFR / Cyl.

correct me if I am wrong here, but CAN is all well and good as long as you have the correct language to feed whatever your trying to drive (i.e. Dash etc... as they have different languages).

obviously once you have that data its not such a problem...

 

[stan*]

the 710 does indeed have individual fuel and ign trims for each cyl, you of course need to actually read something to be able to trim it... i.e. individual EGT and AFR / Cyl.

Cylinder pressure ideally..

 

[Andy GDI]

or that yes....