Timing setup issue

[mad in general]

I am doing the full timing job on my 172. All genuine parts, cam seals, dephaser etc.... tools!!!

When setting the timing the horseshoe needs to be placed into the inlet cam and rotated clockwise a few degrees to get it to slot into the exhaust cam.

Is this normal? I believe it is.

I have followed the procedure outlined in the workshop pdf and using a video on YouTube. I have been reading/watching things on this procedure for the past 7 years of ownership and will not go any further until I know this is done properly.

I have used a feeler gauge in the top left gap between the horseshoe and slot on the inlet cam, to try and take up the slack so to speak.

No matter what I do, once pulleys are torqued up the inlet cam always rotates anti clockwise. Therefore whenever I re-insert the horseshoe it doesn't just slot in. Little bit of a wiggle does it but using pressure.
The tool will not slide back and forth in the slots without me leaning on it.

Can any the usual suspects assist?

 

[JamesBryan]

Is it just tension on the valve springs causing it?

Have you equalised the belt tension with the pulleys loose and turned the engine over a few times?

 

[mad in general]

Is it just tension on the valve springs causing it?

Have you equalised the belt tension with the pulleys loose and turned the engine over a few times?

I think this may be the cause, although only based on what I've read.

I believe I have followed the correct process entirely. I will be back at the car over the coming days so will just re do the procedure. Although I have done it several times and always getting the same result.

Everything is locked correctly. If it were to lock the pulleys using the tool any tighter then I'd probably snap something.

 

[mad in general]

One other question,

The horseshoe loosely moving in the cams, is this a must have? Is it only non genuine tools that should do it or should the renault one to?

 

[JamesBryan]

One other question,

The horseshoe loosely moving in the cams, is this a must have? Is it only non genuine tools that should do it or should the renault one to?

You should be able to slide the tool side to side in the slots when it's bang on.

 

[william84]

Are you using cam pulley lock tool?

 

[mantis946]

I had a nightmare doing mine and must have done the process around 8 or 9 times before I was happy, I found after the rotations that it would be every so slightly out (Tool would go in but not wiggle) sticking a socket onto the end of the exhaust cams and applying pressure would actually move the pulley ever so slightly and it would be perfect again, given the other end of the cams were locked I can only assume the pulley was moving ever so slightly on the cam.

Degreasing the end of the cams and pulley again did not seem to change it, but I had missed a step of doing the manual engine rotations without the cam pulleys torqued up and had only done it with them torqued. This seemed to sort it out, engine runs good.

 

[JamesBryan]

I had a nightmare doing mine and must have done the process around 8 or 9 times before I was happy, I found after the rotations that it would be every so slightly out (Tool would go in but not wiggle) sticking a socket onto the end of the exhaust cams and applying pressure would actually move the pulley ever so slightly and it would be perfect again, given the other end of the cams were locked I can only assume the pulley was moving ever so slightly on the cam.

Degreasing the end of the cams and pulley again did not seem to change it, but I had missed a step of doing the manual engine rotations without the cam pulleys torqued up and had only done it with them torqued. This seemed to sort it out, engine runs good.

Yeah your last bit is correct, you need the pulley nut/bolt loose by 1mm or so. Keep the horseshoe tool in but take out the crank pin, spin the engine over half a dozen times whilst periodically pushing the cams back flush and checking the nut/bolt isn't tightening itself.

Lock the crank again, lock the pulleys, torque it all, unlock the pulleys, remove horseshoe tool and crank pin. Turn over again half a dozen times and lock the crank, then see if the horseshoe tool slots in. If not, repeat the process.

 

[mad in general]

I am using the full genuine renault tools, locking cams, crank, pulleys etc...

Everything mentioned above describes all that I am doing. It must just be a case of try again!

Is there any harm in slackening the belt/tensioner again and starting from scratch?

Should I be using the feeler gauge?

 

[JamesBryan]

You will be fine to slacken it and start again.

It shouldn't be needing the feeler gauge, but if the end result works after double checking then there should be no harm done.

 

[william84]

I had similar issue with mines.
But I hadn't used the pulley locking tool.
It was the inlet one that gave me hassle.

 

[NorthloopCup]

Everyone I’ve done, I’ve ALWAYS turned the belt anti clockwise to get the tension on the belt properly. Then locked the pulleys up and tightened everything up. Never had an issue.

 

[JamesBryan]

Everyone I’ve done, I’ve ALWAYS turned the belt anti clockwise to get the tension on the belt properly. Then locked the pulleys up and tightened everything up. Never had an issue.

Couldn't do that with a keyed crank pulley could you?

 

[Radugns]

I did not use the pin in the crankshaft and rotate a small amount anticlockwise.

 

[JamesBryan]

I did not use the pin in the crankshaft and rotate a small amount anticlockwise.

👀

 

[Radugns]

👀

I have a keyed crank pulley, and when I lock the cams with the horseshoe tool, they move a little and create a tension in the belt. So I remove the crank pin, turn a small amount and then tighten up the cams pulleys and turn the engine 2 times and put the cam locking tools and see if the pin goes in. I've done this last time with grp n timing and everything was fine.

 

[NorthloopCup]

Couldn't do that with a keyed crank pulley could you?

Nah you have to be a bit clever with the keyed crank pulley mate. It’s the same theory as if you set them up on vernier pulleys though.

 

[JamesBryan]

Nah you have to be a bit clever with the keyed crank pulley mate. It’s the same theory as if you set them up on vernier pulleys though.

Doing one soon with a megane keyed pulley, do i just time it up like i would a megane then?

 

[NorthloopCup]

Doing one soon with a megane keyed pulley, do i just time it up like i would a megane then?

Yeah exactly the same way mate.

 

[mad in general]

It's a new year but I've got the same problem.

Managed to get time today and went through the process of setting the timing a few times. Tried the various suggestions as above yet still the tool will not line up perfectly, it's a hair out of alignment. The tool physically fits but with a struggle and certainly does not wiggle...


Where am I going wrong????

 

[Radugns]

It's a new year but I've got the same problem.

Managed to get time today and went through the process of setting the timing a few times. Tried the various suggestions as above yet still the tool will not line up perfectly, it's a hair out of alignment. The tool physically fits but with a struggle and certainly does not wiggle...


Where am I going wrong????

I bet it will be fine if the tool fit, but not wiggle.

 

[mad in general]

See I don't believe it will be. As described above, I reckon it's got to be a degree or so out of time. Pop the tool into the inlet cam and I have to push down a touch to get it into the exhaust cam. Once in there is no wiggle room. It will only just move if I am leaning on it.

Is it possibly to time without using the pulley tool? As in nip it all up relatively tight. Check timing after a few crank revolutions. Torque it then check and recheck and so on...? I might get lucky and it lines up perfectly.

 

[botfch]

Use a feeler gauge on the inlet cam to take up the pressure should slide side to side after that.

 

[Scrooge]

I’ve done a fair few and most will have wiggle at the horseshoe and slide straight in and out without having to rotate either of the cams.

however I had one that just wouldn’t, it proper fucked me off keep slackening everything off and doing it again so I got it as close as I possibly could. That car went on to make the most power for a standard 182 on the day at Surrey rolling road so I don’t think you need to worry mate

 

[Radugns]

See I don't believe it will be. As described above, I reckon it's got to be a degree or so out of time. Pop the tool into the inlet cam and I have to push down a touch to get it into the exhaust cam. Once in there is no wiggle room. It will only just move if I am leaning on it.

Is it possibly to time without using the pulley tool? As in nip it all up relatively tight. Check timing after a few crank revolutions. Torque it then check and recheck and so on...? I might get lucky and it lines up perfectly.

I don't think 1 degree can cause damaged. I mean I am sure did not cause.

If the tool fits snug into cams, you can't use a feeler gauge @Archtronics

 

[Radugns]

I’ve done a fair few and most will have wiggle at the horseshoe and slide straight in and out without having to rotate either of the cams.

however I had one that just wouldn’t, it proper fucked me off keep slackening everything off and doing it again so I got it as close as I possibly could. That car went on to make the most power for a standard 182 on the day at Surrey rolling road so I don’t think you need to worry mate

Did you use OEM locking tools?

 

[Scrooge]

Did you use OEM locking tools?

yep only ever use genuine tools, I managed to snap a laser horseshoe about 8yrs ago, never again lol

 

[JamesBryan]

As @Scrooge says it 'should' be ok. It'll only be a degree at most.

Grp N timing is 7 or 8 degrees.

 

[mad in general]

There is enough room for the feeler gauge on the inlet cam. Totally standard engine and tools.
I've just realised. Should the feeler go on the lower left of the inlet cam??? That would pull it anti clockwise?

 

[Radugns]

yep only ever use genuine tools, I managed to snap a laser horseshoe about 8yrs ago, never again lol

I think the problem is when you lock the pulleys, the tend to rotate a little and create tension into the belt. If you tight the dephaser pulley first, when lock the exhaust, it does create tension on inlet and r****d the cam a little.

 

[Radugns]

As @Scrooge says it 'should' be ok. It'll only be a degree at most.

Grp N timing is 7 or 8 degrees.

Just 6

 

[Radugns]

There is enough room for the feeler gauge on the inlet cam. Totally standard engine and tools.
I've just realised. Should the feeler go on the lower left of the inlet cam??? That would pull it anti clockwise?

By looking at the cam ends, inset a feeler gauge into the top left or bottom right, to be a little advanced. Tight the inlet first using the horseshoe locking tool and then exhaust. In the end the crank pulley. Maybe this will work for you?

 

[mad in general]

By looking at the cam ends, inset a feeler gauge into the top left or bottom right, to be a little advanced. Tight the inlet first using the horseshoe locking tool and then exhaust. In the end the crank pulley. Maybe this will work for you?

Is this a method you have experience using?

 

[Radugns]

Is this a method you have experience using?

Yes, I have problems with locking horseshoe tool and in that way I can align the grp n timing on my clio.

 

[Ianboom]

It's been a few months since I did it, but I seem to remember tightening the depahser and then putting some tension on the exhaust pulley anti clockwise while I nipped up the nut up.
It was if the locking tool had a slight bit of movement in it and added up with a bit of movement elsewhere, causing the horseshoe to be tight in the cams. When I did it this way, it was bang on.

 

[mad in general]

Does it matter in which order you torque the pulleys?

If I leave the inlet until last then I can slacken the pulley locking tool for the inlet and hopefully that will allow some minor adjustment.

Any thoughts?

 

[Ianboom]

I did the exhaust cam last.
I did 'nip' them up tight and tested the the timing with the horseshoe before torquing them up. When I torqued them, they didn't move.

 

[Radugns]

I've done a cambelt job yesterday. Using genuine tools, without keyed crank pulley and was spot on.
I've done like:
put the locking tools at cams, put the crank at tdc, put the horse shoe tools on pulleys (make sure that it does not spin when tight down the nuts, use a small 8mm wrench as helper and then the 19mm one on nuts) and then torque down the crank bolt. Altfer remove the lockers, I realized that the cams are moved a little (both with same amount) from tdc. So undo the crank bolts, put the crank a little retarded from tdc ( you can check by looking into the locking pin hole) and then torque it again. At 3rd attempt it was perfect. The problem was when torque the crank bolt, it stretches a little the belt. You can remove the cam locking tool when torque down crank pulley (just leave it hand tight before remove the cam locking tool).
This is how I managed to get it right.

 

[mad in general]

It wiggles!
I wont pretend that I know how I done it but I had to use a 0.17 feeler in the cam groove. Spun it over half a dozen times and it all lines up perfectly!

Now time for the rebuild.

Thanks for all the responses. A little info from each poster has definitely helped.

 

[welshname]

Whilst you SHOULD be able to get it in without movement and it slide side to side, I recall a specialist on here saying that “if it takes a slight bit of pressure with your pinky finger to get it to drop in then that’s fine”