Timing tools not fitting.

[Jall]

Hello ladies and gents,

Paging people who have done F4R timing belts before

Engine is out of the Clio at the moment for a few different reasons and the timing belt is due based on time. So I'm studiously working my way through the process but have hit a snag.

When I put the TDC pin in, there is no way I would be able to get the horseshoe locking tool in (picture attached of where they land), I assume this means my timing is out.

Further info:
- If I rotate the engine further (the direction it looks like the cams need to go to line up, there is no slot for the TDC pin to lock into. I'm pretty sure I'm in the right slot. I've also verified this by putting a long screwdriver on Cylinder 1 and verifying engine is at the top of stroke. I've rotated the engine numerous times.
- Engine had the timing belt done just before I bought the car by a reputable workshop. However car has always had a lumpy idle in my posession.
- Using genuine Renault tools

Now, I wanted to validate my next step before I go ahead loosening everything off (trying to get this right the first time).
- I assume I remove tension and remove timing belt,
- Nudge cams back into time so that the horsehoe tool can lock them in place.
- carry on with the rest of the procedure including loosening cam pulleys and rotating belt assembly before re torquing to ensure even tension.

Cheers for any help
Jack

 

[JamesBryan]

If you are confident it's at tdc, go ahead and lock the pulleys and then remove the tension on the tensioner.

Take out the crank bolt and have a look at where the keyway in the crank is. It should be in the middle of the two ribs on the outer casing, roughly 1 o'clock position like this

 

[Robbie Corbett]

What tools are you using? Its really easy for the crank locking pin to slip into the 'wrong' grove. I had to fiddle about a bit before it was in the right place. The piston will move very little about the TDC position so its an easy mistake to make.

The Renault tool would lock the crank in the wrong spot and look about right, however it would go further in (by a mm or two) when in the correct spot. From memory, in the correct spot you can rock the crank back and forth a tiny amount (the tolerance of the pin in the grove) in the incorrect spot I don't recall there being any slop as the pin is sitting in a fillet.

 

[Jall]

Thanks Guys,

What tools are you using? Its really easy for the crank locking pin to slip into the 'wrong' grove. I had to fiddle about a bit before it was in the right place. The piston will move very little about the TDC position so its an easy mistake to make.

The Renault tool would lock the crank in the wrong spot and look about right, however it would go further in (by a mm or two) when in the correct spot. From memory, in the correct spot you can rock the crank back and forth a tiny amount (the tolerance of the pin in the grove) in the incorrect spot I don't recall there being any slop as the pin is sitting in a fillet.

Using the renault tools. The pin is definitely in all the way to the shank. If I rotated the crank further, there was no where for the TDC pin to drop into.

I've relieved the belt tension, manouvered the cams into position and will whip the crank pulley off today to verify the keyway is in the right spot as well as throw the gearbox on to check the timing marks against the casing. Three points of verification should be enough to overcome my anxiety....

 

[loggyboy]

I use an endscope camera and check the hole you slotting the TDC pin is the slot not a weight balance hole.
They are cheap as chips and some just plug in to a phone.

 

[Robbie Corbett]

I use an endscope camera and check the hole you slotting the TDC pin is the slot not a weight balance hole.
They are cheap as chips and some just plug in to a phone.

Nice!

 

[scullyg40]

@loggyboy That's a good tip, and I'm sure such a camera will come in handy more often. 👍

 

[alx8oy]

Hello ladies and gents,

Paging people who have done F4R timing belts before

Engine is out of the Clio at the moment for a few different reasons and the timing belt is due based on time. So I'm studiously working my way through the process but have hit a snag.

When I put the TDC pin in, there is no way I would be able to get the horseshoe locking tool in (picture attached of where they land), I assume this means my timing is out.

Further info:
- If I rotate the engine further (the direction it looks like the cams need to go to line up, there is no slot for the TDC pin to lock into. I'm pretty sure I'm in the right slot. I've also verified this by putting a long screwdriver on Cylinder 1 and verifying engine is at the top of stroke. I've rotated the engine numerous times.
- Engine had the timing belt done just before I bought the car by a reputable workshop. However car has always had a lumpy idle in my posession.
- Using genuine Renault tools

Now, I wanted to validate my next step before I go ahead loosening everything off (trying to get this right the first time).
- I assume I remove tension and remove timing belt,
- Nudge cams back into time so that the horsehoe tool can lock them in place.
- carry on with the rest of the procedure including loosening cam pulleys and rotating belt assembly before re torquing to ensure even tension.

Cheers for any help
JackView attachment 1515290

Hi, when i done the belts on my 172 it took me about 20 attempts to get these lined up. They are so precise it untrue. When i put the tool in the cams i tried to hold them in the undo position so that when the cam gear was tightened it didnt move it to far. This gave the clearance to get the tool back in easy if that makes sense

 

[MonkeyKnifeFight]

The way I see it. The horse shoe loose is how you want the cams to end up.

Because the cams move when tightened I put them slightly out of timing. Then as I tighten the cams they end up perfect.

This isn’t even remotely how you are supposed to do it but i get far better results using this method over the book method.

 

[alx8oy]

The way I see it. The horse shoe loose is how you want the cams to end up.

Because the cams move when tightened I put them slightly out of timing. Then as I tighten the cams they end up perfect.

This isn’t even remotely how you are supposed to do it but i get far better results using this method over the book method.

Thats exactly how i done mine, setting them up as you do in other renault lumps or ford zetec with a similar tool i ended up with the cams the same as your picture or if not the tool really really tight to go in.

 

[Ianboom]

Thats exactly how i done mine, setting them up as you do in other renault lumps or ford zetec with a similar tool i ended up with the cams the same as your picture or if not the tool really really tight to go in.

I did this too.

 

[Jall]

Thanks everyone for the help, motivation is slow with this one, but slowly getting there.
Good idea with the scope, took this advice and was definitely pinned in the right spot, so timing was a decent chunk out before (retarded).

I’ve had two goes at tensioning the belt and not been able to achieve a loose fit with the horseshoe tool.

had another crack today, included a feeler guage to try and take some of the slack. Inlet cam is still slightly advanced, needs a bit of a push to get the tool to meet up and fit in with the exhaust cam. Tool won’t slide side to side.

Do I go again? Those who have done this before, just how loose a fit were you able to achieve? Has anyone just been happy with a slightly tight fit?
Any zen tips that I’m not finding in the workshop manual?

Cheers
J

 

[MonkeyKnifeFight]

One tip that may help. When I was practicing getting the timing right I tried locking the crank at tdc. Then with the horse shoe in place tighten the exhaust cam pretty much fully along with the crank. Gently nip the inlet cam (tight enough so you can spin the belt a rotation whiteout it moving) rotate the engine the set it to tdc again lock the crank, set horse shoe and at this point focus on tightening the inlet cam in the right spot. At this point you can even fully loosen the inlet cam and move it if needs be.

 

[Ianboom]

This was my 182.

 

[Jall]

Took another 3 or 4 goes but got there in the end.

I’m getting rid of the car or putting a different engine in before it’s due again. [emoji23]

Thanks for the help.




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