What's new
By:
Filters
ClioSport.net

Register a free account today to become a member!
Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

  • When you purchase through links on our site, we may earn an affiliate commission. Read more here.

(up to) 240bhp from 422's?!



rich83

rich83

  Clio 200
Surfing the net as one does, I stumbled upon Track-Group and some F4R offerings....
http://www.track-group.com/track-powertrain/engine-building/engine-building-renaultsport/
Strikes me as very optimistic for 422's does it not?

Not much info I can find on these guys other than a tenuous link with TDF, which appears somewhat of a dirty acronym around these here parts now?!

422's and 423's appear to be the Mk2 equivalent to 404's and 405's for the Mk3 respectively. Thinking about using 404's next year hence the interest.
 
rich83

rich83

  Clio 200
Yes I'm aware of that...but is I'm afraid entirely missing the point too.

I've not seen 422's pushing 240bhp before, or close really - however not being completely versed in the Mk2 profile choices, I was interested in other peoples thoughts and results. Perhaps Track-Group are 'known' to others on this site?
Given that a cam profile has a fixed amount of duration and lift (ignoring overlap with LSA changes) a profile will only ever be able to offer so much performance, if all other restrictions are removed. Hence I question whether 240bhp is perhaps a lot out side the envelope of the 422 profile?
 
rich83

rich83

  Clio 200
cheers, I shall I have a read through those later.
I searched on here (honest!) but only found a couple of examples doing more like 220bhp on 422's and someone's making 230bhp 423's - hence the thread.

I don't profess to know what the limits are with a 422 profile - but gives me more confidence of making 240bhp on 404's then seeing as they have more lift than 422's.

thanks :)
 
E

EVOgone

ClioSport Club Member
  Pink Cup Racer
My 422 engine F4R is 230bhp, Godneys rallycar engine is 243bhp on 423s. This is with a 182 exhaust manifold so with a Pure manifold maybe a couple more bhp.
Its mainly the head (mine is a mild tidy up / Godneys CNC heads) and compression ratio that will determine really, oh and most importantly who built it!!!!
 
rich83

rich83

  Clio 200
Thanks, yeah so I think a strong 230ish probably about right then if all else is well. What are the rev's people are achieving this at though?

Yep headwork is a question mark right now for sure.... mk3 heads are already better but how much is difficult to quantify. I wouldn't be surprised to find port sizes are already disproportionately large given valve area, and even more so when you think in terms of effective valve area based on a tight short side turn radius giving unequal flow out the seat. I've always been a fan of bigger valves and reshapped throats, fixes the port size to valve size ratio and you get to fix the the short side turn radius whilst working the throat and cutting new seats.

Only shitter is I've got Supertech OE valve sizes in my current head and having to fork out for another set is a pain - and if the mk3 head can do 240bhp (there or thereabouts) anyway I'm not really sure I need to touch the head.
 
NorthloopCup

NorthloopCup

ClioSport Moderator
rich83 said:
Thanks, yeah so I think a strong 230ish probably about right then if all else is well. What are the rev's people are achieving this at though?

Yep headwork is a question mark right now for sure.... mk3 heads are already better but how much is difficult to quantify. I wouldn't be surprised to find port sizes are already disproportionately large given valve area, and even more so when you think in terms of effective valve area based on a tight short side turn radius giving unequal flow out the seat. I've always been a fan of bigger valves and reshapped throats, fixes the port size to valve size ratio and you get to fix the the short side turn radius whilst working the throat and cutting new seats.

Only shitter is I've got Supertech OE valve sizes in my current head and having to fork out for another set is a pain - and if the mk3 head can do 240bhp (there or thereabouts) anyway I'm not really sure I need to touch the head.
Click to expand...
Inlet ports are huge, as you've probably seen for yourself. Exhaust ports are the same size as a 182 head - small, but when my head was done we didn't open them up by a massive amount as its not needed. The standard valve sizes will flow enough for 230-240 as well, so unless you like spending money, I wouldn't bother getting big valves sorted unless your going to push on for 250/260+.
The joker that the 197/200 head has up its sleeve, is the inlet port position and the combustion chamber.
 
rich83

rich83

  Clio 200
Ha well I'm fairly partial to spending a bit on this bloody thing!! But not if I can achieve my goals otherwise of course. Tbh my only goal is keeping it on hydraulic lifters because of the ballache of a cam cover we have, it'll make what it makes so to speak. If I could check and adjust the top end though like I could on my old 8v 106 engine I would jump at R3 tappets and followers, 20mins with a feeler gauge and you're sorted. However fully timing the engine on the Clio is not something I can be arsed to even contemplate!

I can hope then that with a leap of faith the stock head will deliver 230-240ish - certianly ties in around the R3 Maxi and Maxi Evo area that will be, though I expect the Evo had some hand finishing?
Maybe I could send my head off to have a little fettling to the throat area and ensure a nice backcut on the valves - you'll get most of your gains this way for the least work and no drawbacks. Hate it when people just open the ports up and polish the f**k out of it and think it's a good job!!

A big valve head will be at least 1k and like you say unliklely needed until 250+ which surely puts me into a cam profile which requires solids -so not an option. It's a shame really as tbh the money I spent on the Arrow rod's is kinda wasted unless I can get to over 8k, I'd probably have been fine with OEM rods and just ARP bolts staying sub 7800rpm.
I think based on the results these guys have posted on 422's, the 404 cam with it's extra lift should be about spot on for this target...!
 
NorthloopCup

NorthloopCup

ClioSport Moderator
rich83 said:
Ha well I'm fairly partial to spending a bit on this bloody thing!! But not if I can achieve my goals otherwise of course. Tbh my only goal is keeping it on hydraulic lifters because of the ballache of a cam cover we have, it'll make what it makes so to speak. If I could check and adjust the top end though like I could on my old 8v 106 engine I would jump at R3 tappets and followers, 20mins with a feeler gauge and you're sorted. However fully timing the engine on the Clio is not something I can be arsed to even contemplate!

I can hope then that with a leap of faith the stock head will deliver 230-240ish - certianly ties in around the R3 Maxi and Maxi Evo area that will be, though I expect the Evo had some hand finishing?
Maybe I could send my head off to have a little fettling to the throat area and ensure a nice backcut on the valves - you'll get most of your gains this way for the least work and no drawbacks. Hate it when people just open the ports up and polish the f**k out of it and think it's a good job!!

A big valve head will be at least 1k and like you say unliklely needed until 250+ which surely puts me into a cam profile which requires solids -so not an option. It's a shame really as tbh the money I spent on the Arrow rod's is kinda wasted unless I can get to over 8k, I'd probably have been fine with OEM rods and just ARP bolts staying sub 7800rpm.
I think based on the results these guys have posted on 422's, the 404 cam with it's extra lift should be about spot on for this target...!
Click to expand...
Maxi evo has different inlet valves only, going off the part numbers I've got, but I'd imagine that they fettled the head to get the most from it.

If your going itbs and doing away with the standard inlet you should see the 230/240hp your wanting mate, but obviously the standard inlet will always be a restriction when compared to itbs.

My R3 maxi cams are a similar spec to 404's, but information on their spec is difficult to find.
 
rich83

rich83

  Clio 200
Yep, works spec parts are always nothing but rumour mill!! :( I think cat cams produce the R3 Access exhaust cam too just to add to the rumour mill! This is based on info I found trudging though French RS forums and Google translate - my assumption therefore is it's the 401's..... lots of nice speculation there though!!!

Maxi Evo uses a "Soupape Admission évo légére" (lighter valve) on the inlet, but christ knows what size, potentially bigger, potenitally just a single piece replacement to be reliable at 8500rpm.....? hopefully the latter :D

Yep ITB's will wind up on here. Car goes in to Specialist Components next week to have a mk3 kit officially produced - so harness and canbus file. It'll come back with a live map of course and the R3 injectors on there, so seeing as it made 215bhp @ RST on a s**t exhaust which is now fixed (have an Akra) - I'd hope up to 220bhp. But tbh I'm doing this for the part throttle driving not power, 403's have proven a bit much overlap for a stable MAP signal. Any extra power is a welcome bonus to car that will pull cleanly again.

I do love cars and engines, but at the same time hate them frequently!!!
 
rich83

rich83

  Clio 200
Yeah I would think a sports bike engine is so well developed and is in a such a state of tune it'll make it very difficult to get more from it. Certainly it's miles over the law of diminishing returns line if you do want to tune it - irrespective of the fact the last thing Litre sports bikes need is more power!!
 
NorthloopCup

NorthloopCup

ClioSport Moderator
rich83 said:
Yeah I would think a sports bike engine is so well developed and is in a such a state of tune it'll make it very difficult to get more from it. Certainly it's miles over the law of diminishing returns line if you do want to tune it - irrespective of the fact the last thing Litre sports bikes need is more power!!
Click to expand...
They can remap them to around 200hp, but yeah, law of diminishing returns. Every 1hp at that level is like trying to find a tenth of a second in F1!
 
B

bloke

  dan's cast offs.
NorthloopCup said:
F4r or s1000?!
Click to expand...

s1000, saw one in a right state at around 30,000 miles, if that high? bearing behind the clutch basket was lose in the crank case, spun and wore the retaining plate away so the whole basket was clunking in and out. not to mention top end rattle:wink:
 
NorthloopCup

NorthloopCup

ClioSport Moderator
bloke said:
s1000, saw one in a right state at around 30,000 miles, if that high? bearing behind the clutch basket was lose in the crank case, spun and wore the retaining plate away so the whole basket was clunking in and out. not to mention top end rattle:wink:
Click to expand...
It's high but not mega high mate. The early ones were the ones prone to the issue with the clutch bearing/basket dramas. Top end was chocolate cams!
Mainly the racers that suffered the catastrophic failures though.

Anyway - we divulge. Apologies @rich83
 
rich83

rich83

  Clio 200
ha no worries, threads served it's purpose as 240bhp on 422's is not as wild as I thought. Honestly thought you'd struggle to get there on 423's in all honesty.
I think I've established 230bhp would be the sort of minimum figure you want to hit on 422's, any less and you've got a probably obvious restriction.

My current thoughts are I'll maybe leave the head and try 404's with the ITB's, suck it and see. It's 6 months really before I do this anyway so plenty of time to change my mind 18 times and read a few more books!!
 
ALD

ALD

Just done a big valve head so should see 240+
image.jpeg
 
E

EVOgone

ClioSport Club Member
  Pink Cup Racer
What the spec of the engine is this heads being used on? would be interesting to see how this goes.

Will need some lairy cams to make use of the benefit of the larger valves. How much extra flow vs a std valve over the left range?
 
B

bloke

  dan's cast offs.
high comp bottom end, dcoe bodies, bang and olufsen (or whatever they are called) cams and adaptronic ecu.

will probably change the cams at some point for something a bit more interesting but running them for now as they are in the engine that's coming out of the car. will have a mess with the cam timing though and at some point no doubt stick pms exhaust manifold on.
 
rich83

rich83

  Clio 200
EVOgone said:
Will need some lairy cams to make use of the benefit of the larger valves. How much extra flow vs a std valve over the left range?
Click to expand...

I was reading an article by David Vizard the other day and there was a section about using bigger valves to address the common issue with modern 'sporty' 4V heads having excesivley large port sizes, which our heads seem to be a victim of. Short verison of it was to cut in big valves properly and focus on the seats and throats, this will yeild a better effective valve area to port size ratio. You can essentially leave the port size as-is, yet reap both flow and gas improvments this way.

However, yes I agree some nice cams with 12.5mm+ of lift running on solid tappets deserve a place here!!
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

Englebert
6 Countries, 1700 miles, 1 Porsche 997T
2
Replies
64
Views
5K
Chili Red
Chili Red


Top