VAG Gearbox Conversion

[Scoff]

Hi Tutuur,

Of course, I forgot that you were a fellow R5 owner !

It is interesting to hear you are using RS hubs. I am just undertaking the upgrade to RS hubs and RS outer CV's. Interestingly the hubs almost fit right on, with only a few small modifications to make. Unfortunately I have had to keep the 238mm R5 brakes because the bigger RS brakes will not fit behind my drag wheels. I have had to modify the hubs to accept the R5 calipers.

Regards the speed signal for the R5, yes it should be quite easy. The R5 uses a reluctor sensor in the gearbox which reads a toothed pattern on the outside edge of the diff. The pattern has something like 12 teeth, so making a trigger wheel with the same number of teeth and mounting it between the drive flange and inner CV (very easy place to mount a trigger wheel!) should work fine. You may need to make the drive shaft a little shorter to accomodate the width of the trigger wheel. I run standalone in my own car with a diff speed sensor and a rear wheel speed sensor.

Hutchie, thanks for pointing that out, I should have included that in the post. As you say earlier cars use that hall type sensor in the hole at the back of the gearbox. This is the sensor that will be hard to replicate if switching to an 02M. It might be a case for counting the pulses and repacing it with a trigger wheel and hall effect sensor.

Cheers, Chris

 

[Jaff.]

the meggy has speed sensing off the ABS so im ok there

main thing im worried about with this is drilling the crank because i have to take it out again and the hydraulic clutch!

 

[Scoff]

Jaff, if the flywheels come out the way I want them you'll not need to do anything to the crank. You'll be able to re use the standard 9mm bolts.

Hydro clutch just takes a bit of mechanical nouse! The simplest way is to use an 0.75 (willwood, girling, whatever) master cylinder. You can mount that above the clutch pedal or in the bay if you have space.

 

[Jaff.]

thats very good news!

i have the clutch pedal off the leon at my disposal so im gonna see if i can butcher that to fit the renault i think ive seen a solution

 

[Tutuur]

My goal will be 400hp so if you think the 9mm bolts will take it that problem is gone too.Don't forget you where running grippies and on/off clutch Chris

 

[Scoff]

I broke the flywheel bolts part way through 4th gear, but they were longer versions to accomodate the spacer, 12.9 though. I think the standard ones will be fine

 

[Owen:s]

Any more news on these flywheels mate? If my engine dose not sell I'll be putting it back in with the vag box ive got instead of the 1.8t what I'm on building

 

[Scoff]

Hi Owen and all,

Indeed there is some progress. Last week I have finalised the design with the engineers and have ordered a couple of samples. I expect them to arrive within the next few weeks and as soon as they do I can inspect them and update this thread with pictures and so on.

In short, the initial batch will be 240mm for 02M 6 speed conversions. They will have the correct offset to negate the requirement for a spacer and are designed with a 6mm bellhousing plate in mind. They will retain the original Renault crank stud pattern and allow the use of the standard 9mm flywheel-to-crank bolts which will save re-tapping the crank and finding longer bolts.

Finally, I have added the OEM crank trigger pattern just behing the ring gear but offset -30° to allow the crank sensor to be fitted to the front of the gearbox near to the 02M's inspection hole. This will mean that folk will be able to continue using standard engine management if they wish

The adaptor plates are still in the drawing phase. I want to be able to offer a plate that will accomodate both 02J and 02M and there is a little more work involved to make that happen.

I will as promised keep this thread up to date.

PS, if you are still in any doubt of the 02M-F4R durability you can take a look at how I treated mine over the weekend !
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fu3shJ3uawk

Cheers, Chris

 

[Tutuur]

glad to hear your making progress! would be great if the pattern works out too!
so i have the option to use oe management and maybe in the future swap to adaptronic for instance...

how the smoke from the front tyres clear you can tell it's almost stormy! did you ran with gear dependant boost control or is it just the result of the extra uuummppfff you have now?

 

[Scoff]

Hi Tutuur, that is gear dependant boost and additional ignition r****d in 1st gear to force it to grip. I couldn't have done that before because it would forever break the R5 driveshafts if it had that much grip. Now I am using Clio RS CV's and hubs, they are much stronger

 

[bomber]

Impressive stuff scoff, if this had happened 6 months earlier I wouldnt have followed Adey in selling the sc'd clio

Fair play for making the time and effort involved with sorting these out for the forum folk!!

 

[gold972]

hello, scoff
good initiative, I look forward to your kit I have for a big project for my clio turbo kit that's what he missed greatly! good luck

ps: how will this kit cost?

 

[Scoff]

Hello guys, I have an update.

After some teething problems I can at least now offer one part of the conversion.

I have had some steel, light weight (5.8KG) and balanced one-piece 240mm flywheels made which simply bolt up to the Renault F crank with the standard M9 bolts to accept a single plate VW clutch, the likes of which would fit in any other 02M Audi TT/Golf/Cupra/etc.

http://www.efi-parts.co.uk/renault-vw-flywheel/EFI-Parts-F-to-02M_1.JPG
http://www.efi-parts.co.uk/renault-vw-flywheel/EFI-Parts-F-to-02M_2.JPG
http://www.efi-parts.co.uk/renault-vw-flywheel/EFI-Parts-F-to-02M_3.JPG

They have standard Renault timing marks on the rear such that a hole can be drilled in the 02M case and a sensor installed for users of OEM management. The whole pattern is offet 30° anti-clockwise so that the sensor ends up on the front edge of the bellhousing un-abscured by bolts. For standalone users the pattern can be modified easilly to remove the double-tooth and turn it in to a normal 60-2 GM/Bosch pattern which lots of ECU's will read fine.

It proved difficult to find someone with a Clio who was prepared to bring their car to me for a conversion such that I could test fit the gearbox and adaptor plate and make templates for mounts, driveshafts and so on. I am promised a car in January so that I may finally get the first Clio conversion done and then I will be able to offer a near full kit of parts.

It has been a long time comming and I apologies for that. I will update as soon as I have known-working adaptors and/or mounts available.

For now, flywheel's can be had at £450 + £10 carriage

All the best for Chrismas guys,

Chris.

 

[Silent_Scone]

Merry Christmas to you indeed

 

[Tutuur]

Hi Chris,
Good to read it has worked out fine with the flywheel!
Do you mean you'll have to modify the flywheel yourself or it can be made up with 60-2?
I'm currently a bit broke but need an adaptor plate too so i'll wait patiently!

Merry christmas and nice new years eve!

 

[marinemackay2003]

fantastic stuff, glad to see this coming along

put the conversion on my list to santa :approve:

 

[Scoff]

Hi Tutuur,

To swap to 60-2 it takes some physical modification. It would be a bit costly to change the design for only 1 or 2 flyheels. But it is quite easy - ideally in a mill you would remove part of the double tooth to make it normal size again which then leaves a 2 tooth gap instead of 1. You will want to remove a similar amount of material 180° away to correct the balance. I wouldn't mind doing that before sending it infact.

Cheers all, Chris

 

[tom172cup]

Any more news on this guys fed up of nursing it off the line now

 

[Jaff.]

I bilieve scoff was let down by a clio owner to test it out. He's sorting it though last I heared

 

[tom172cup]

Thats good i did pm him about using my car but he said somebody had beaten me to it

 

[Scoff]

Hi all,

The proccess is taking a little longer than expected. To save the wait I aquired a CAT-C Phase 1 172 so that I can test the gearbox fit in the Clio.

Currently I have an adaptor plate and empty gear case fitted to the block. I can only progress with this as time alows. There isn't enough interest to warrant me dedicating a whole lot of time and money to it in one go. But hopefully by the end of the week I'll at least have test fitted, made some mountings and took driveshaft measurements since the shell cannot hang around for too long.

I will keep this thread up to date as promised

Chris

 

[Silent_Scone]

any progress is good progress Scoff

 

[Tutuur]

Sorry to hear there isn't much interest for the conversion.
I'm currently and will be down on money due to some private reasons.
So not really sure if i'm going to continue my F7R high boost turbo project

 

[Scoff]

Sorry to hear that Tutuur, money problems are rarely good. I hope you resolve it soon.

Another short update.

Yesterday I did some test fitting in an engine bay. I mounted an empty 6 speed 02M case to a 172 motor and dropped it in to the scrap shell I've loaned.

In short, the gearbox fits quite well really. In some ways better than the R5. There is sufficient clearance at the chassis rail and it is a good distance off the steering rack and pas pipe work. Re-using the original gearbox top mount is not possible because of the extra height in the 02M. But, it will not be difficult to make an improved mount that bolts up to the original holes in the rail and turret. It is not possible to re-fit the lower gearbox rubber either. It might be possible to fit another universal mount just in front of the original location if desired but if the top mount is stiff enough then it should not be required.

Re-using the dog-bone type mount at the rear should be perfectly possible though. There are some points on the underside of the gearbox to afix a custom mount to.

The only snag is that the gearbox inteferes with the subframe slightly. It actually sits on the subframe with the engine at the correct position, so the subframe needs only minimal work to generate some clearance. If you're using solid mounts then it won't be a problem anyway.

There is a good line for driveshafts and I forsee no other problems in making it work.

The battery will need re-locating because the new gear change cable mech gets in the way. It should be possible to add a bracket to the new mount to support the ECU and whatever else if required.

I've decided that it'll be too much work to create off-the shelf mountings and driveshafts. While there has been some interest in the conversion there really isn't enougn to warrant the required work and the cost of the resulting mounts would need to cover that work of course. So instead I will continue to offer the custom flywheel and very soon the adaptor plate and required mounting hardware.

If anyone would like to go ahead with a conversion and who does not want to make their own mountings and driveshafts then I'll be happy to take on the conversion for them now that I am 100% confident that everything fits fine.

I took some pictures and put them here. It's a scrap phase 1 172 I used so please excuse the mess.
http://www.efi-parts.co.uk/renault-vw-flywheel/

I don't often remember to check PM's here but you can always contact me via email at chris@efi-parts.co.uk

Chris

 

[Tutuur]

This get's way to less interest! No bhp hunters anymore?

 

[tom172cup]

This get's way to less interest! No bhp hunters anymore?

I'm still game for more power just waiting for this conversion te be available

 

[wag1]

Im after a better optionfor the williams

No point getting bigger injectors before getting a gearbox upgrade

 

[Jaff.]

I'm still game for more power just waiting for this conversion te be available

i dont think scoff is offering the conversion anymore. you can either buy the plate, flywheel, mount and driveshafts and sort the rest out yourself or take the car to scoff to have the lot done afaik.

 

[tom172cup]

i dont think scoff is offering the conversion anymore. you can either buy the plate, flywheel, mount and driveshafts and sort the rest out yourself or take the car to scoff to have the lot done afaik.

Reading fail lol. looks like i may have to get in contact with him soon then

 

[Tutuur]

well if you have the flywheel and adapt. plate the worst bit is done!

 

[tom172cup]

Do any of you guys have a spec list for the conversion at all. cars off the road agian now . so it WILL be having the VAG box etc.

 

[Jaff.]

When you say spec list you mean for a kit or evrything you need?

 

[tom172cup]

When you say spec list you mean for a kit or evrything you need?

A list of everything i need please Jaff. im looking at this on ebay
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/VW-Audi-0...Parts_SM&fits=Car+Make:VW&hash=item4163fbed29.

 

[Jaff.]

Ok as far as I can think of this is what you need.

Gearbox, adaptor plate (with welded stud), gear selector from a VW/seat/Audi etc., clutch master cylinder (0.75), reservoir, associated brake lines and fittings, starter motor, custom driveshaft, custom mount (I have a cad drawing of a mount I made that would enable you to keep the majority of the standard stuff) for n/s, custom mount for underneath (I managed this with some standard Renault stuff), custom flywheel from scoff, and a clutch to suit a single mass flywheel on the vw rather than the standard dmf.

You also need to chop bits off your engine block but it's nothing major just a corner off an original mounting point and a foot on the bottom.

 

[tom172cup]

Right better start the hunt for these parts asap. cheers for that jaff. Is yours all up anr running now what power are you runnimg?

 

[Jaff.]

Not yet mate been ill the last 2 weeks and waiting for certain parts have been a pain so nearly there. Will hopefully have a reliable 280-300 bhp when it's done

I found it hard finding a clutch (got it from lark speed in the end) and be aware that there are different starter motors for the 02m with different bolt spacings.

As we're talking about the starter motor too make sure you've got some long ass bolts to secure it.

 

[Allan-]

An intresting Read, what sort of price are you looking at for a drive in drive out job ?

Possible to use the quatro box and 4wd the clio off this too ?

 

[tom172cup]

An intresting Read, what sort of price are you looking at for a drive in drive out job ?

Possible to use the quatro box and 4wd the clio off this too ?

not massivly cheap. but if your going to be using the car for hard launches big top speeds it needs to be done imo.
There has been a 4wd cossie powered one made

 

[Chip-mk1]

An intresting Read, what sort of price are you looking at for a drive in drive out job ?

Possible to use the quatro box and 4wd the clio off this too ?

Quatro sits the other way around, it would by synchro you would need to do that really (well in terms of it being like the conversion talked about hear rather than spinning the engine around)

Shame no one is offerin this as a complete kit as I do think it would sell.

 

[Jaff.]

Quatro sits the other way around, it would by synchro you would need to do that really (well in terms of it being like the conversion talked about hear rather than spinning the engine around)

Shame no one is offerin this as a complete kit as I do think it would sell.

Dont think it does chip, I'm sure the tt quatro sits as a 2wd tt does only it has a transfer box on it sending power backwards. So it's feasible if you can make space for it