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VForce Intake
- Thread starter tomehb
- Start date
Look people I dont like bullsh*t figures either, These test were done by WRC in Silverstone.. they do all the testing for EVO magasine.... you know EVO that bullshit mag for boy racers : )
If you discredit the results it not Pipercross who are offended its them.... it is there name on the graph, this shows the test is inderpendent.... but you will always get the cynical ones... and no it did not need more fueling, but could have made more power with it.. the reason you havent seen many graphs like this one is because most other kits dont offer a full taylor made kit, including intake pipes etc.... look at the ITG, the same unit is used on everything from 1.6 engines to 3.0 engines.... this kit is designed for maximum power, not looks, not cost...but maximum power...
Once again..this is not a Pipercross power graph, it is a WRC graph... look through EVO to see what sort of company they are...
If you discredit the results it not Pipercross who are offended its them.... it is there name on the graph, this shows the test is inderpendent.... but you will always get the cynical ones... and no it did not need more fueling, but could have made more power with it.. the reason you havent seen many graphs like this one is because most other kits dont offer a full taylor made kit, including intake pipes etc.... look at the ITG, the same unit is used on everything from 1.6 engines to 3.0 engines.... this kit is designed for maximum power, not looks, not cost...but maximum power...
Once again..this is not a Pipercross power graph, it is a WRC graph... look through EVO to see what sort of company they are...
Clio 172 mk2
16v_jon said:
Would definately work better with mapping but then every car fitted with an induction kit and aftermarket exhaust would benefit as well.
WRC technologies are indeed a very reputable company who offer good services....I've heard a lot of good reports about them from people who have had work done there and been to rolling road sessions.
Can you get Gruppe M kits for the clio??
Figured the Gruppe M might be a bit too high-end. They do look fantastic tho!
Right, time for a lecture!
There seems to be a lot of opinions on here but not much theory or fact. An induction kit works on one simple principal - to improve air flow to the engine. Any high performance air filter will do this. The problem is however (and the reason there are people on here saying they do nothing) is that a lot of induction kits suck in warm air from the engine bay, negating any benefits of the increased flow. You see, warm air is less dense than cold air i.e. for a given volume of warm air, it will contain less oxygen than for the same volume of cold air. Critically, fuel needs oxygen to burn (remember your fire triangle from school!!) and therefore the more oxygen you can supply, the more fuel you can burn and hence the more power you can make.
Modern induction systems are very restrictive due to NVH requirements. They are specially tuned to cancel out induction noise and as a consequence become convoluted and inefficient.
What is required, therefore, is a high flow filter that has a cold air feed. That is exactly what Pipercross are trying to do with their V-Force (and they are not the only ones). You cannot judge this on previous experience of, say, K&N 57i kits or whatever. The V-Force will provide a cold supply of air and a high flow filter and I have no doubt that it will improve power. Having said that, they seem to be using a lot of elaborate and largely unnecessary materials in it's construction which is putting the price up. I have made many home made induction kits from old air boxes, Samco hoses and universal cone filters with very good results.
If you are getting more oxygen into the system, you will need more fuel. Nearly all modern engine management systems monitor the air-to-fuel ratio and will add more fuel to maintain an optimum A/F ratio (of around 14:1, I think), within pre-determined limits.
As a slight digression, another way of gaining power from induction kits is from using ram air effects, but you need a very direct induction routing to achieve this and I don't believe the V-Force will provide this.
With any tuning it is important to understand what is trying to be achieved. There are so many myths surrounding horsepower. Horsepower is calculated from torque. It is very important to know this. Torque is what governs acceleration, not power. This may be tricky to get your head around, but go with it. When you accelerate in any given gear, the peak acceleration in that gear will occur at peak torque, not peak power. If acceleration was governed by power, the rate of acceleration would keep increasing as you go up the power curve, and this doesn't happen. As the revs go up, you obviously continue to build speed, but the rate at which the speed is building is directly related to the shape of the torque curve. If you have a flat torque curve you have a constant rate of acceleration. If you've driven a modern turbodiesel you'll know that you get a big dollop of torque followed by not much. To relate this to the torque curve, the torque curve rises steeply for about 2500rpm and then drops rapidly. My point here is that you should think of power as the engines ability to sustain torque as the revs increase. And power is equal to torque multiplied by engine speed.
Now, this relates to induction kits because when you fit an induction kit, you improve flow and therefore the breathing of the engine, throughout the rev range but particularly under full throttle and at the top end of it's rev range. Even if the peak power figure is hardly improved, the engines torque curve will stay flatter for longer. For example, if peak power was 180bhp @ 7000rpm with the standard induction system and 183bhp @ 7300rpm with an induction kit, the engine is maintaining a higher level of torque for an extra 300rpm. So, when you're accelerating flat out (at Santa Pod or wherever) using all of the revs, the engine will sustain the pull on each gear for an extra 300rpm. It doesn't sound like much but can be worth a couple of tenths of a second over a quarter of a mile. Also, if (and this is a big if) the torque is improved throughout the rev range, then the car will accelerate more quickly in each gear.
In general, induction kits don't often offer a noticeable increase in torque lower down in the rev range, hence when fitted they don't provide an easily noticeable change in performance and hence why people on here are saying they do nothing. Plus, in normal driving when you are not using all the revs or full throttle, there is little or no difference in performance.
So, in summary, I think the V-Force will provide a small increase in power and performance but it is the increase in torque (if any) that is more important and any differences can probably only be measured in reality against the clock.
Sorry for the long post!
There seems to be a lot of opinions on here but not much theory or fact. An induction kit works on one simple principal - to improve air flow to the engine. Any high performance air filter will do this. The problem is however (and the reason there are people on here saying they do nothing) is that a lot of induction kits suck in warm air from the engine bay, negating any benefits of the increased flow. You see, warm air is less dense than cold air i.e. for a given volume of warm air, it will contain less oxygen than for the same volume of cold air. Critically, fuel needs oxygen to burn (remember your fire triangle from school!!) and therefore the more oxygen you can supply, the more fuel you can burn and hence the more power you can make.
Modern induction systems are very restrictive due to NVH requirements. They are specially tuned to cancel out induction noise and as a consequence become convoluted and inefficient.
What is required, therefore, is a high flow filter that has a cold air feed. That is exactly what Pipercross are trying to do with their V-Force (and they are not the only ones). You cannot judge this on previous experience of, say, K&N 57i kits or whatever. The V-Force will provide a cold supply of air and a high flow filter and I have no doubt that it will improve power. Having said that, they seem to be using a lot of elaborate and largely unnecessary materials in it's construction which is putting the price up. I have made many home made induction kits from old air boxes, Samco hoses and universal cone filters with very good results.
If you are getting more oxygen into the system, you will need more fuel. Nearly all modern engine management systems monitor the air-to-fuel ratio and will add more fuel to maintain an optimum A/F ratio (of around 14:1, I think), within pre-determined limits.
As a slight digression, another way of gaining power from induction kits is from using ram air effects, but you need a very direct induction routing to achieve this and I don't believe the V-Force will provide this.
With any tuning it is important to understand what is trying to be achieved. There are so many myths surrounding horsepower. Horsepower is calculated from torque. It is very important to know this. Torque is what governs acceleration, not power. This may be tricky to get your head around, but go with it. When you accelerate in any given gear, the peak acceleration in that gear will occur at peak torque, not peak power. If acceleration was governed by power, the rate of acceleration would keep increasing as you go up the power curve, and this doesn't happen. As the revs go up, you obviously continue to build speed, but the rate at which the speed is building is directly related to the shape of the torque curve. If you have a flat torque curve you have a constant rate of acceleration. If you've driven a modern turbodiesel you'll know that you get a big dollop of torque followed by not much. To relate this to the torque curve, the torque curve rises steeply for about 2500rpm and then drops rapidly. My point here is that you should think of power as the engines ability to sustain torque as the revs increase. And power is equal to torque multiplied by engine speed.
Now, this relates to induction kits because when you fit an induction kit, you improve flow and therefore the breathing of the engine, throughout the rev range but particularly under full throttle and at the top end of it's rev range. Even if the peak power figure is hardly improved, the engines torque curve will stay flatter for longer. For example, if peak power was 180bhp @ 7000rpm with the standard induction system and 183bhp @ 7300rpm with an induction kit, the engine is maintaining a higher level of torque for an extra 300rpm. So, when you're accelerating flat out (at Santa Pod or wherever) using all of the revs, the engine will sustain the pull on each gear for an extra 300rpm. It doesn't sound like much but can be worth a couple of tenths of a second over a quarter of a mile. Also, if (and this is a big if) the torque is improved throughout the rev range, then the car will accelerate more quickly in each gear.
In general, induction kits don't often offer a noticeable increase in torque lower down in the rev range, hence when fitted they don't provide an easily noticeable change in performance and hence why people on here are saying they do nothing. Plus, in normal driving when you are not using all the revs or full throttle, there is little or no difference in performance.
So, in summary, I think the V-Force will provide a small increase in power and performance but it is the increase in torque (if any) that is more important and any differences can probably only be measured in reality against the clock.
Sorry for the long post!
The only time you will recieve benefits from your Induction kit is whilst accelerating and revving hard. Your engine can breath easier and benefits from the forced cold air it may recieves when the car is moving.
Heat soak will play a Big part if your a Highly tuned engine running hot, however the engine bay recieves alot of cool air from the grill. What im trying to say is for the small periods that your car is stationary compared to driving you should'nt suffer a great amount of Heat absorbtion.
Heat soak will play a Big part if your a Highly tuned engine running hot, however the engine bay recieves alot of cool air from the grill. What im trying to say is for the small periods that your car is stationary compared to driving you should'nt suffer a great amount of Heat absorbtion.
Fred2001Dynamic said:
INCORRECT!!! When will people realise (This is not aimed at you fred) lol.
172 with viper + zorst = Exactly the same if not less. The renault ECU can't deal with the extra volume of air, whether it be warm or cold.
I'm sure Ben will clarify, but By adding IK's and zorst's you simply don't have enough fuel, and too much air, This made mine run very Lean and i've since had to put the std airbox bak on until i get it mapped for the IK.
can't be arsed writing any more.
I saw a M3 y'day run nearly 20bhp less than book with a 1k supersprint zorst and Gruppe M IK, all because the car wasn't mapped properly.
Clio 172
How fast does the air have to hit the air filter before the foam starts collapsing and blocking any flow? Isn't an IK supposed to suck air in rather than have it forced into it. So, a stream of FRESH cold air across the front of the filter intake (not 3ft away down a tube) must be a better option. Better still would be a supply of constant stream of cool air at a slower rate than the car so the IK doesn't have to divert a fast stream of air across it's inlet. A reversed ram perhaps with a disruptor at the filter end to slow the air flow down and a valve to let air out at a certain mph?
In the case of a closed air feed:
If my maths are correct a 70mm diameter air feed at 50mph takes in around 110000 cm3 of air per sec. If the IK can't 'inhale' that much, the air starts backing up down the feed tube causing the air to 'block' the tube, and reducing the flow of fresh air into the tube. Fresh, cooler air will only enter the tube at the rate at which the IK can inhale it. If the foam in the filter is collapsing due to the speed of air hitting it then it's inhale rate will be reduced further.
Or am I worrying over nothing?:S
In the case of a closed air feed:
If my maths are correct a 70mm diameter air feed at 50mph takes in around 110000 cm3 of air per sec. If the IK can't 'inhale' that much, the air starts backing up down the feed tube causing the air to 'block' the tube, and reducing the flow of fresh air into the tube. Fresh, cooler air will only enter the tube at the rate at which the IK can inhale it. If the foam in the filter is collapsing due to the speed of air hitting it then it's inhale rate will be reduced further.
Or am I worrying over nothing?:S
clio-lane said:
Worrying over nothing as it pracitcally makes no sense.
When you measure flow through an oriface you have to take into account the relative pressure differential which creates the movement from high to low. And all flow takes that action, high to low. Engines do not suck, they clear a void to a relative depression and the natural ambeint pressure of the atmosphere pushes air into the engine.
When you bring in the principal of 'ram air' into the following, you first have to understand what is required to generate any sort of ram effect. To put it in laymands, for a 'perfect' setup which can actually generate ram effect within an airbox, you have to be doing about 230mph to generate near a single PSI. You will get more of a gain in relative pressure just by driving down from the alps to the coast, and a substantial one at that.
Ram air on a car requires a pickup point which has a high relative pressure, that ISNT stagnent. If you placed an intake on the front bumper, air would flow into the intake, but only the amount required by the engine will be consumed. So the chances of the filter choking are slim at any speesd we can generate.
However, the idea of diffusing the air before and after the filter to generate laminar flow is a good one, but again, if your filter area is sufficiently large, or larger than required, you dont have to worry about that either.
Clio 172
Ben, I love your laymans terms as they are still far and above us mere mortals. Ha ha
Are you saying that you can't drive fast enough to 'choke' the cold air feed?
You can have the laminar air flow idea for AWR. Just send me one when it's ready
. I'm now thinking of a 'T' piece device. The bottom of the 'T' comes from the cold air feed, then one arm goes to the air filter and the other is left open.
Are you saying that you can't drive fast enough to 'choke' the cold air feed?
You can have the laminar air flow idea for AWR. Just send me one when it's ready
. I'm now thinking of a 'T' piece device. The bottom of the 'T' comes from the cold air feed, then one arm goes to the air filter and the other is left open.WHy have one to open and no filter?
Todays filters are so nrestrictive that there is no good reason, in my mind, not to run one, its asking for trouble.
And yes, choking a filter will not occur thorugh straight mass flow, you'd probably need to initiate some sort of super sonic wave inside it for flow to actually stop.
I think the best way to explain it is using a hose and a cup with a hole in the bottle. If you spray the hose into the mug, it'll fill up. Once full, it'll stay full, but flow wont stop, it'll simple excape the oriface opening with no detrimental effect on flow through.
Todays filters are so nrestrictive that there is no good reason, in my mind, not to run one, its asking for trouble.
And yes, choking a filter will not occur thorugh straight mass flow, you'd probably need to initiate some sort of super sonic wave inside it for flow to actually stop.
I think the best way to explain it is using a hose and a cup with a hole in the bottle. If you spray the hose into the mug, it'll fill up. Once full, it'll stay full, but flow wont stop, it'll simple excape the oriface opening with no detrimental effect on flow through.
