Weird Understeer-esk feeling on track

[BIFCAIDS]

Good Afternoon kids,

So a couple of weeks ago I did a Javelin track day at Trac Mon in Anglesey.

The day was a bit of a shake down for me anyway, however I had a problem I couldn't sus out.

Now I'm absolutely useless when it comes to explaining myself so please bear with me.

This issue is prominent irrespective of speed, but on the exit of the right handers (Banking, Church, Rocket Out, Peel and the Hairpin) the car would turn in but then suddenly wash out, a bit like it would if it was wet and you just floored it out of the corner. Wheels spin up and naturally the car would "drive" towards the outside of the track, except it was bone dry and it didn't matter if I was on the power or not. Another thing was the steering after each right hander would never actually centre, so the top dead centre marker would be at maybe 5 past or 10 past until you took a left hander. Very prominent after Banking, Rocket Out and the Hairpin.

I've recently fitted a Bridgecraft RCK, I know this won't be to blame but the car is only doing this since fitting that. I'm f**king useless but when fitting this I followed the instructions "to the letter of the law" (Ted Hastings) and ensured everything was torqued up correctly. We did a rudimentary alignment on the car the night before and mid track day and that 2nd adjustment did make a slight difference, however I'm not confident alignment is solely to blame.

I'm running 1 track day old AR-1's that have plenty of meat on them and they're not Blue on the shoulders etc.

I'm waiting for a reply from BLINK about getting the car properly aligned and set up, my biggest issue is the car isn't road legal so I can't even test it out on the road.

Anybody else had experience of this?

Spec of the car
GAZ Gold coilovers (camber set to pretty much max, damping set to 17/21)
Compbrake top mounts (camber set to max)
AR-1's 195/50's
Bridgecraft roll correction kit

Any help would be appreciated.

Mike

 

[Usr117063]

How heavy/light is your steering? Because one of the things having manual steering on mine highlighted that I was inducing way to much steering angle. Being open diff I have to be extra careful. I know someone will come along and say you need a diff (I assume you dont have one) but its not the answer to everything. For whatever reason the clio doesnt get much suspension geometry development, there are plug and play kits out there and adjustable arms but outside of the uk people have way more crazy setups on their clios.

Are you on a completely standard hpas system? Because contrary to what people say about the steering, its so awful, theres so much play. Ive gone to the lengths of machining the rack because its just designed so poorly. I run undersized rotary seals as well to limit the amount of rack shaft movement. I found that the pinion was deflecting under load and the rack gears not engaging properly. I can go on and on.

If you want to drive for 6 hours or whatever it takes you can have a go in mine 😄

 

[Usr117063]

You also lose a fair bit of caster fitting a roll centre kit, as Im under the assumption the clio has quite a lot of dynamic caster under bump, this is what Ive noticed from my setup (no RCC) and other people that have fitted them.

 

[BIFCAIDS]

How heavy/light is your steering? Because one of the things having manual steering on mine highlighted that I was inducing way to much steering angle. Being open diff I have to be extra careful. I know someone will come along and say you need a diff (I assume you dont have one) but its not the answer to everything. For whatever reason the clio doesnt get much suspension geometry development, there are plug and play kits out there and adjustable arms but outside of the uk people have way more crazy setups on their clios.

Are you on a completely standard hpas system? Because contrary to what people say about the steering, its so awful, theres so much play. Ive gone to the lengths of machining the rack because its just designed so poorly. I run undersized rotary seals as well to limit the amount of rack shaft movement. I found that the pinion was deflecting under load and the rack gears not engaging properly. I can go on and on.

If you want to drive for 6 hours or whatever it takes you can have a go in mine 😄

Steering feel like regular old Clio steering to me, its a little on the heavier side. I have a Quaife fitted by our very own Northloop Mark.

I am on the standard hpas system albeit with a new HP line on it, I also have the Pureshite Air Con delete kit v2 on the car and on that day it managed to make the belt jump, which I sorted. I had the rack rebuilt earlier last year as we were getting a nock on certain corners around Cadwell, turns out someone else same car, same diff had the same knock and that turns out to be play in the drive shaft moving in and out slightly.

I'm hoping the car just needs properly setting up alignment wise and that will be it, I'm sick to the back teeth with pissing about with it these days. I think a lot of that is from crashing one and then rebuilding this one from a shell.

As you say the Clio has so little adjustment until you start adding bits.

You've lost me on the last bit I've made bold, I can literally drive and that's about it 😅 ha ha ha

 

[Usr117063]

Considering you have a diff you can rule that out. I think if you can take it somewhere to have it balanced and aligned you can then get a better understand at what it could be. I think mine had a bit of a wack or off before I got it, there was no arb and it needed a fair bit of work, I then took the door card off some year or so later and it had a spare parts sticker dated not long before as well! But the front end is very good, its just the arb thats a little off on toe one side.

 

[Usr117063]

I know this doesnt help so much, but with mine, you can drive over the nastiest ruts and undulations that English roads has to offer, at most the wheel will feel slightly lighter and jerk a bit, I still have complete control over the wheel. My other 182 that I just bought (completely stock) and bmw e90 move around so much on the road (wheel play), its just near on impossible to push on or have a relaxing time on some b roads, having to steer left and right constantly. I also have a fix for the bmw which Im eager to do, like Ive done to the clio.

 

[Bluebeard]

Have you played around with the rear damper settings and tyre pressures?

I had a friend with me on my last day and he was constantly messing with my pressures and the difference it made was amazing.

 

[BIFCAIDS]

Have you played around with the rear damper settings and tyre pressures?

I had a friend with me on my last day and he was constantly messing with my pressures and the difference it made was amazing.

The rear is perfectly fine, It will only step out if provoked, but I know the issue is front end because of the way the steering feels. It goes proper light as though I'm lighting the fronts up on a wet track, yet I dont even have to put the gas on.

As for tyre pressures I start the day on 25 cold and the fronts usually rise to 30/32 hot, rears 28/30 hot. Suspension wise I normally have it a couple of clicks softer than the front, I don't like a lose back end, technique wise Im a smooth driver so it suits me. Never been an issue up until now 😓

 

[Usr117063]

A correction kit changes a lot of the suspension geometry, the caster, king pin inclination, scrub radius, mechanical trail and more than I can comprehend. Its why I wont fit one, Im going to build my suspension setup from scratch so I dont throw anything way out.

 

[Andropidis]

It definitely sounds like something which shouldn't be moving is moving because of the steering wheel behaviour after corners.

Did your bolt check include absolutely everything? Thinking top mounts, sub frame, steering rack, etc?

What condition are your bushes in? I doubt a slightly worn bush would cause this but if you have one totally destroyed, it could be the cause. The steering rack is held in with bushes too, in case you didn't know.

 

[BIFCAIDS]

It definitely sounds like something which shouldn't be moving is moving because of the steering wheel behaviour after corners.

Did your bolt check include absolutely everything? Thinking top mounts, sub frame, steering rack, etc?

What condition are your bushes in? I doubt a slightly worn bush would cause this but if you have one totally destroyed, it could be the cause. The steering rack is held in with bushes too, in case you didn't know.

Well a full nut a bolt check is on the cards, but top mounts, Sub frame and steering rack have been checked once already.

Bushes are not very old and all Powerflex Black bushes, aye I knew that the steering rack has bushes I fitted it and swore I'd never piss about with it again.

 

[JB21]

Do a full bolt check, but sounds like you've altered the dynamic suspension settings fitting the RCK. If so, you'll need a proper set-up to get the best out of the RCK.

Drop Adam at Clearmotorsport a message, he'll talk you through it and sort you out a proper set-up. He's only based in Preston, top fella and wont charge you the earth like Blink will.

CleaR Motorsport Services

 

[Djw John]

I had similar issue once of the wheel being in a different position after corners.
Turns out that my camber bolts were very tight instead of f**king tight.
That sorted the issue once I'd hung off them

 

[JamesBryan]

Were you able to measure the camber?

With the camber maxed out as you say plus the slight increase you'd get with the RCC kit, you could in theory be driving on the inside of the tyre.

Saying that, it would have to be a fair bit of camber for it to do that. Like -4 degree plus...

 

[BIFCAIDS]

Were you able to measure the camber?

With the camber maxed out as you say plus the slight increase you'd get with the RCC kit, you could in theory be driving on the inside of the tyre.

Saying that, it would have to be a fair bit of camber for it to do that. Like -4 degree plus...

Very likely it looks scene as f**k ha ha ha, bit like the Black 1.2 did but on the front

 

[BIFCAIDS]

Do a full bolt check, but sounds like you've altered the dynamic suspension settings fitting the RCK. If so, you'll need a proper set-up to get the best out of the RCK.

Drop Adam at Clearmotorsport a message, he'll talk you through it and sort you out a proper set-up. He's only based in Preston, top fella and wont charge you the earth like Blink will.

CleaR Motorsport Services

I'll give them a shout as Blink have ignored me.

 

[JamesBryan]

Very likely it looks scene as f**k ha ha ha, bit like the Black 1.2 did but on the front

That might be it then 😅

Like driving on 2 inches of tyre.

 

[Jamie86]

Ar1 don’t like loads of camber either around about -3 or less seems to be the sweet spot for them. Clio maxed out on camber bolts will be more than that!
Also as said above by Dan try playing with pressures they like to be lower than you would expect!

 

[BIFCAIDS]

Ar1 don’t like loads of camber either around about -3 or less seems to be the sweet spot for them. Clio maxed out on camber bolts will be more than that!
Also as said above by Dan try playing with pressures they like to be lower than you would expect!

What do you suggest then, when I'm already starting at 25 cold and they're only getting to 30 hot?

 

[JB21]

Ar1 don’t like loads of camber either around about -3 or less seems to be the sweet spot for them. Clio maxed out on camber bolts will be more than that!
Also as said above by Dan try playing with pressures they like to be lower than you would expect!

Can you explain how a certain tyre, in this case AR1's don't like to much camber? I run AR1's with -4 and I have no problems, even temps across the tyres and no unwanted handling or wear issues.

 

[NorthloopCup]

Something else worth checking is the tightness of the lower spherical bearing in the housing. Lift the front end off the ground and unbolt the 2x bolts from the lower spherical holder to wishbone. Leave the main nut for the pin tight! With those 2 bolts out, the ball joint holder should move nice and smooth with no tight spots in any direction of movement.

 

[BIFCAIDS]

Something else worth checking is the tightness of the lower spherical bearing in the housing. Lift the front end off the ground and unbolt the 2x bolts from the lower spherical holder to wishbone. Leave the main nut for the pin tight! With those 2 bolts out, the ball joint holder should move nice and smooth with no tight spots in any direction of movement.

Thanks Mark I'll give this a try, seeing as you are part of the development/making etc. 👌 probably should have just messaged you in the first place.

 

[NorthloopCup]

Thanks Mark I'll give this a try, seeing as you are part of the development/making etc. 👌 probably should have just messaged you in the first place.

Well I was, but I’m not anymore mate. Martin and Allan are good friends of mine though 👍🏻

 

[Jamie86]

Can you explain how a certain tyre, in this case AR1's don't like to much camber? I run AR1's with -4 and I have no problems, even temps across the tyres and no unwanted handling or wear issues.

Even across the tyre that’s mighty impressive to manage that. I’ve always seen a difference on the Pyrometer on all tyres I’ve checked across the width.

If you have a look even Nankang recommend themselves between -1 to -3 of camber. Personal experience shows that over that they tend to overheat the inside of them.

AR-1

Previously on Yoko AO50 and DZ03G with the same toe but more camber they were fine on the insides.
On a side note I have some MRF ZTR to try as well which apparently need more camber again to turn them on properly.

sounds like you have a pretty good setup already if you’re seeing even wear and temps but there certainly isn’t a one setup fits all on one car for every type of tyre as I’ve found out the hard way!

 

[BIFCAIDS]

Well I was, but I’m not anymore mate. Martin and Allan are good friends of mine though 👍🏻

So I got the alignment done by Amery Motorsport as Clear wasn't taking bookings, didn't explain why just that he couldn't.

Anyway, I left the car with them Thursday afternoon and Im picking it up tomorrow. However, Martin has sent me the before and after figures for the cars alignment...

"
Geometry before -
Left Rear Right Rear
Shocks +13 clicks Shocks +13 clicks
Camber 1.4- Neg Camber 0.9- Neg
Toe 0.8+ In Toe 2.8+ In

Left Front Right Front
Shocks +17 clicks Shocks +17 clicks
Camber 3.3- Neg. Camber 2.7- Neg
Toe 5.4- Out. Toe 2.4+ In

After
Left Rear Right Rear
Shocks +11 Clicks. Shocks +11 Clicks
Camber 1.4- Neg. Camber 0.9-Neg.
Toe 0.8+In. Toe 2.8+In

Left Front. Right Front
Shocks +15 Clicks. Shocks +15 Clicks
Camber 2.2- Neg Camber 2.2- Neg
Toe Parallel Toe Parallel

Advisory-
Nearside steering rose joint very slight play."

I'm surprised by the play in the rose joint though 😒

What's the craic with the 2.8+In toe on the right rear, is that factory?

 

[NorthloopCup]

So I got the alignment done by Amery Motorsport as Clear wasn't taking bookings, didn't explain why just that he couldn't.

Anyway, I left the car with them Thursday afternoon and Im picking it up tomorrow. However, Martin has sent me the before and after figures for the cars alignment...

"
Geometry before -
Left Rear Right Rear
Shocks +13 clicks Shocks +13 clicks
Camber 1.4- Neg Camber 0.9- Neg
Toe 0.8+ In Toe 2.8+ In

Left Front Right Front
Shocks +17 clicks Shocks +17 clicks
Camber 3.3- Neg. Camber 2.7- Neg
Toe 5.4- Out. Toe 2.4+ In

After
Left Rear Right Rear
Shocks +11 Clicks. Shocks +11 Clicks
Camber 1.4- Neg. Camber 0.9-Neg.
Toe 0.8+In. Toe 2.8+In

Left Front. Right Front
Shocks +15 Clicks. Shocks +15 Clicks
Camber 2.2- Neg Camber 2.2- Neg
Toe Parallel Toe Parallel

Advisory-
Nearside steering rose joint very slight play."

I'm surprised by the play in the rose joint though 😒

What's the craic with the 2.8+In toe on the right rear, is that factory?

I’d have to have a look at what the factory tolerance was for toe in on the rear, but I’d be definitely shimming it to be closer to the left rear.

 

[JB21]

2mm shim on the OSR and it will be sound. Did you ask for parallel front toe? It will feel very slow to turn in now, especially given the before figures. I'd say you want something in-between really, 1-2mm toe out each side works well on a 1*2 track car, especially for a track like Anglesey GP with its tight 2nd gear corners.

 

[BIFCAIDS]

2mm shim on the OSR and it will be sound. Did you ask for parallel front toe? It will feel very slow to turn in now, especially given the before figures. I'd say you want something in-between really, 1-2mm toe out each side works well on a 1*2 track car, especially for a track like Anglesey GP with its tight 2nd gear corners.

Well I asked for a balanced set up and I haven't picked the car up yet, I was supposed to ring him on Saturday but I've been way too busy since dropping it off. He emailed me those figures. These guys also race Mini's and used to run a Clio Cup car so I left it in his capable hands.

 

[JB21]

Well I asked for a balanced set up and I haven't picked the car up yet, I was supposed to ring him on Saturday but I've been way too busy since dropping it off. He emailed me those figures. These guys also race Mini's and used to run a Clio Cup car so I left it in his capable hands.

Fair enough, set-up is always a personal preference. I highlighted the front toe being parallel, as from the factory the 1*2 came with a smidge of toe out.

 

[JamesBryan]

If it didn't have the roll centre kit on I'd say it would definitely need a bit of toe out.

But it might be alright as it is with the kit on.

It'll feel a lot better than previously anyway 😂

 

[BIFCAIDS]

So, I had a good 30 minute chat with Martin about the set up, he explained the way he'd set it up to me and actually suggested I raise the rear up too by 10mm to induce some rake, which in turn will also induce some rotation when provoked. He explained the reason for making the front parallel, as It is purely for pleasure and Im not chasing lap times it's perfect for me and my Dad. The sheer fact the set up is now spot on means the handling of the car will be infinity better than it was. He wants me to ring him after Cadwell also to see how we got on with it.

Unfortunately for me I won't be able to find out myself as I underwent surgery and apparently I can't take part 😪.

He also mentioned the rear toe, as it's well within the green for the rear axle (excuse my lack of terminology). He just said he'd leave well alone as the car has likely always been like this, we've never adjusted it and it always felt fine.

 

[BIFCAIDS]

Just wanted to update everyone with how I got on at Cadwell after the alignment. Well it was the best the cars ever handled so it was all down to the absolute dog shite alignment hahaha 🤦‍♂️😅

 

[photo_ed]

I've just read this with interest as your initial post highlighted almost exactly the issue I currently have with my Trophy after the front suspension was refreshed recently. It used to drive beautifully before and now it's not right. I'd suspected it to be the alignment 'off' somewhere and your experience seems to confirm this. Cheers!