Welded Clio Diff

[Clio80]

Yes thats why i put that statement in, what ever company told my mate at the Autosport Show it can be done says if inspected and you spin the wheels it still turns like a LSD but when driving it gives the "affect of a LSD"

If in the Regs it states you cannot use a LSD but does not say you cannot weld or modify it maybe thats bending the rules.

In stock hatch all the front runners are cheating but as i said they are all cheating hahahaha so if this mod is possible they will all be doing it!

If you have a quaiffe ATB diff then the wheels still spin in opposite directions like normal, so maybe it was quaiffe he spoke to?
Also it will allow one wheel to spin if you jack only one side in the air.
It needs to see some resistance on both wheels before it torque biases.

Only way to tell you have a quaiffe easily is to drive it and feel how well it lays the power down, or to pull the shafts out to check.

 

[Clio80]

Sorry forgot to put it wasnt Quaife he spoke to because that would be fitting a LSD

Yes thats why i put that statement in, what ever company told my mate at the Autosport Show it can be done says if inspected and you spin the wheels it still turns like a LSD but when driving it gives the "affect of a LSD"

If in the Regs it states you cannot use a LSD but does not say you cannot weld or modify it maybe thats bending the rules.

In stock hatch all the front runners are cheating but as i said they are all cheating hahahaha so if this mod is possible they will all be doing it!

 

[Chip-mk1]

The Quaiffe is an ATB diff, its different to a plate and the wheels spin in opposite directions.
Thats your best way to cheat TBH.

 

[Clio80]

Yeah thats why it pases the jacking one wheel up in the air test or putting it on a roller isnt it?

Thats the test they used to do on Caterhams one rear wheel on a roller and if it had a ATB just one wheel would spin but if it had plate type it would push the car off the rollers as it wants to spin both wheels!

 

[Chip-mk1]

Exactly mate.

 

[Clio80]

Right just had my friend text me with the info he was given and this will clear it all up!

" Just spoke to dad, I got it wrong, its a mechanism that goes in the crown wheeland they WELD it in place. You've probably heard about it already. its a company called Gripper Diff, and for the saxo it was about 600 quid. Apparently you can have it from full on LSD down to one that cant be detected when spun at low speeds."

So this is what he is taking about, http://www.k-tecracing.com/show_product.asp?id=4315&appid=2Well i did think it was to good to be true to avoid paying the big bucks for a LSD

 

[Clio80]

So by the sounds of it they are not allowed to use a LSD in the Saxos currently but they are all using Grippers so thats what they will all be doing to the Clios in the coming years!

 

[Chip-mk1]

Its not the thing you linked to on the Ktec site, thats just a normal LSD, I know the things you are on about, they are an add on to a normal diff, I forget the name of them though and Ive not used one personally.

 

[MG cup]

Is he not just referring to the preload and ramp angles. It would be hard to detect if fitted in a test other than if you drove it under hard acceleration if you got it setup less aggressive.

 

[Chip-mk1]

Just remembered it!

Phantomgrip, thats what I think he is on about:

http://www.phantomgrip.com/


Add on for the standard diff, TBH looks quite a good idea in principle but Ive never used one so dont know if the practice stacks up with the theory.

 

[Clio80]

That phantomgrip looks interesting but only do one for a R5 Turbos but from memory the Quaife LSD also fits a R5 Turbs!!

But reading the Ktec bit

This differential requires press fitting and welding to the standard Crown Wheel or can be used with shortened crown wheel and pinion kit available on request. These can be fitted in our workshops. For fitment you will need to replace both Differential bearings and drive shaft oil seals, this is available as a kit for £149.00 + VAT

 

[Chip-mk1]

The ktec one is just a normal LSD. So requires all the normal costs ascociated with one.

Same as the quaiffe in terms of fitting it, major ballache really. Ive just had a couple done for 2 of my clios.

 

[Dan@SJM]

Having had a quick look at the phantom kit, I think on our cases thats a receipe for the diff circlip to pop constantly.

 

[Chip-mk1]

Having had a quick look at the phantom kit, I think on our cases thats a receipe for the diff circlip to pop constantly.

Thats relatively easy to get a bolt on mod to fix too, but yes I dont think its a great idea, hence Ive gone for a couple of quaiffes instead.

I also think they look poorly made and will probably wear out. But like I said, the theory at least is sound so it would be good to see lots of similar offerings and a real improvement in the technology.

 

[Matt@codered]

I have a phantom grip here at my place, had it for years, we became a dealer for them a while ago.

 

[Matt@codered]

That phantomgrip looks interesting but only do one for a R5 Turbos but from memory the Quaife LSD also fits a R5 Turbs!!

But reading the Ktec bit

This differential requires press fitting and welding to the standard Crown Wheel or can be used with shortened crown wheel and pinion kit available on request. These can be fitted in our workshops. For fitment you will need to replace both Differential bearings and drive shaft oil seals, this is available as a kit for £149.00 + VAT

Cheaper if you go direct to quaife, it doesn't need welding, you machine a pair of ball bearing slots into the crown wheel.

 

[Matt@codered]

Having had a quick look at the phantom kit, I think on our cases thats a receipe for the diff circlip to pop constantly.

Not unless you make a plate or modify the diff to accepte a bolt on sun gear retainer.

 

[Silent_Scone]

LOL

 

[Chip-mk1]

Cheaper if you go direct to quaife, it doesn't need welding, you machine a pair of ball bearing slots into the crown wheel.

I bought one of my recent quaiffe diffs for 895 new, and that included the machining.

I bought the other secondhand and paid 45 quid for the machining.

 

[Matt@codered]

I bought one of my recent quaiffe diffs for 895 new, and that included the machining.

I bought the other secondhand and paid 45 quid for the machining.

There you go, a lot cheaper than ktec already.......

 

[Chip-mk1]

There you go, a lot cheaper than ktec already.......

Indeed, but finding parts cheaper than from Ktec is like finding pets lighter than an Elephant, you dont really have to try very hard.

Ktec basically tax stupidity and/or laziness with their prices for most things IMHO, and fair play to them for that its a good business model, I'd buy shares in them!

 

[Matt@codered]

Just a quick message to the op.
If you were drag racing, and had no money, then you could weld the diff up..... I wouldn't, and nor would a lot of people in the world.....
If you wanted to pay a bit of money and use the car for a few track days, then the quiafe ATB is a good unit, if bought new it has a lifetime garunttee as long as you still own the unit.If you are more race orientated and the regs allo,w then a plate type LSD diff is better, but can be expensive on the upkeep, plus with some units available you may need to shorten the near side driveshaft.



There are pros and cons for all this sort of stuff. Like if you lift a driven wheel using an ATB (auto torque bias.... Basically gears in mesh engaging a sprung centre pack) quaife, it will spin the power away through the lifted wheel, the LSD/plate diff and phantom grip will not.

 

[Chip-mk1]

Have you personally used the phantom diffs Matt?

 

[Matt@codered]

Not yet, but I've stripped a 172 phase 1 gearbox this week to drop this unit into. Like you say the theory is there I'd like to give one a go.
I have fitted (and driven) gripper and quaife diffs in the past, by far the easiest is the quaife, the gripper needs shims for the preload on the bearings.

 

[Chip-mk1]

Please do let us know how you get on with it, might be a really good option for a cheap upgrade, although shame its a box apart job to fit still not like a quaiffe in a F16 vauxhall box etc where you can do it with the box in the car.

The quaiffes are by far the nicest package in terms of lack of maintenance and easiest to fit etc, for racing I'd go for a plate diff but for trackday and road cars the quaiffe is ideal really.

 

[Matt@codered]

Vaux F16... Clutches were a piece of piss too, how easy were they!!!!
The thing is I always say its a good insurance policy to check the innards and at least replace the diff bearings and seals if going racing......

 

[Knuckles]

Yeah thats why it pases the jacking one wheel up in the air test or putting it on a roller isnt it?


Thats the test they used to do on Caterhams one rear wheel on a roller and if it had a ATB just one wheel would spin but if it had plate type it would push the car off the rollers as it wants to spin both wheels!

f**king big gamble!

 

[Matt@codered]

Cheating is always a gamble.

 

[Chip-mk1]

Vaux F16... Clutches were a piece of piss too, how easy were they!!!!

My mates record on a ramp will all tools laid out ready was 15 mins from driving on to driving off!

The thing is I always say its a good insurance policy to check the innards and at least replace the diff bearings and seals if going racing......

Agreed, especially when its high miles, again though on the vauxhall in terms of the bearings, you can change them in situ for the diff at least.

 

[Chip-mk1]

Cheating is always a gamble.

You thinking Toyota WRC? FLOL

 

[Matt@codered]

My mates record on a ramp will all tools laid out ready was 15 mins from driving on to driving off!




Agreed, especially when its high miles, again though on the vauxhall in terms of the bearings, you can change them in situ for the diff at least.

I know depressing for us clio owners eh? Then Vauxhall did a mad thing and stopped making the clutch change cover plate....??

 

[Matt@codered]

You thinking Toyota WRC? FLOL

Im not saying anything.....:rasp:

 

[Chip-mk1]

I know depressing for us clio owners eh? Then Vauxhall did a mad thing and stopped making the clutch change cover plate....??

From what is common knowledge but not confirmed by anyone official as far as I am aware, it was cause the dealers were moaning that they couldnt charge enough for changing a clutch!

 

[Matt@codered]

Madness...

 

[Llewellyn]

Only way to tell you have a quaiffe easily is to drive it and feel how well it lays the power down, or to pull the shafts out to check.

What would I be looking for, if I was to pull the shaft out, are they massively different to standard? Genuine question, as I bought a Cup a while back that ''supposedly'' had a diff and I wasn't 100% how different it would look over the standard item.
Cheers.

 

[Chip-mk1]

What would I be looking for, if I was to pull the shaft out, are they massively different to standard? Genuine question, as I bought a Cup a while back that ''supposedly'' had a diff and I wasn't 100% how different it would look over the standard item.
Cheers.

Yes mate, they look massively different.

you would know in an instant if you had the pass side shaft out.

 

[Llewellyn]

Yes mate, they look massively different.

you would know in an instant if you had the pass side shaft out.

Thanks Chip.

 

[Chip-mk1]

Nicked from another thread:

Couple of pictures I've just taken of one of my quaiffe diffs to answer the question about how they solve the problem.

Im getting another box back with one fitted at the weekend so if you remind me I will take a picture of the quaiffe when its in the box.

 

[Matt@codered]

Not sure if this will work, but worth a try.......
http://www.rtoc.org/boards/showthread.php?t=26544&highlight=Quaife


can anyone tell me if the link works please?

 

[Chip-mk1]

Says I dont have access to the page.