What throttle bodies to go for ?

[ian-speedy]

What are people's recommendations for throttle bodies ? Quite a few makes available , have used jenveys in the past , who uses what ? Looking for 240 -250hp

 

[Chip-mk1]

TBH the bodies are the easy bit, Jenveys are a good option. I do know of people who have claimed to have had issues with the ATP that have been resolved by going to Jenveys instead at that sort of level. But 250 to a set of bodies is no big deal to flow in general though.

Its fitting the length that is a really issue on these cars, its all a bit cramped.

250bhp isnt a walk in the park for the engine itself either, are you prepared ok for the costs of solid lifters etc?
Standard valve area isnt great for big power either, so quite a lot of headwork too.

What fuel does it need to run on?

 

[Silent_Scone]

As above you're talking quite a sum for that power.

Speak to Matt @ Tour De Force

 

[SharkyUK]

Can you lend me 10k?!??!
As the guys above have pointed out, it's an expensive job to get 240+ NA. Depending on the state of the engine, it can take several grand just to see the 'fun' side of 200 horses.

 

[mitch1503]

id go for Jenveys if i was to get ITB's.. sharkyuk is alos speaking from experience

 

[chrispy.clio]

Jenveys are what I have and I belive they give the best torque and power throughout the rev range when mapped well

 

[Rubicon_]

What is a realistic budget for getting bodies up and running?

Just a query as they are quite popular.

 

[ian-speedy]

I have Jenveys on my Golf rally car so was edging towards them unless someone said otherwise , yes I know its going to cost money , I learnt long ago rallying isn't cheap lol , and will be doing whatever necessary to achieve that power level

 

[LewisTaylor]

I have 45mm Jenvey's with 90mm trumpets and catcam 421's and am running 212.5bhp & 168ftlb's of torque. Matt at TDF is the guy to talk to, i believe the AT Power bodies on similar engines to me are running bigger numbers. Also i believe Matt has now developed a fly by wire setup for throttle bodies if that would interest you?

 

[Dan519]

Nothing but Jenvey for me. The KTR direct to head throttles are made by Jenvey and are a fair improvement over the bolt together modular kits. Injector position and angle is optomised, and fitting is a whole lot easier due to simplicity. As a guideline, I would charge £2700 for a drive in drive out service on a road car. Converting a cup racer is a bit different with the electronics. Then there's the engine to think about to achieve the power you want.

 

[ian-speedy]

Am I right in thinking that no one can remap the Cup ECU ? as I was planning on changing the ECU and then fitting a stack dash , the race car dash is a bit basic on info , I have a stack in my Golf and they are far better

 

[Dan519]

I think the marelli ECU is locked down with regards to software access, and the dash isn't accessible for other ECU's to control either.

I would be looking at Race Technology dash's, Stack are nice but IMO they've been overtaken.

 

[LewisTaylor]

Am I right in thinking that no one can remap the Cup ECU ? as I was planning on changing the ECU and then fitting a stack dash , the race car dash is a bit basic on info , I have a stack in my Golf and they are far better

I'd really get talking to Matt in that case, i was only talking to him the other weekend about ditching the standard ECU completely, running an EC1 and a race logic dash.

 

[Chip-mk1]

What is a realistic budget for getting bodies up and running?

Just a query as they are quite popular.

I'd aim to spend heading towards 2K to put a set of bodies on my own car, you'll typically pay more than that though if you are paying full retail on all the bits and paying labour for someone else to do the work.

If you are going for bodies its a bit of a waste not to change the cams as well as the bodies will really allow you to get the most from an increase in cams, but the problem then is that Im not a fan of just fitting bodies and cams to a standard F4R unless you are happy with the fact you may have to do some engine swaps relatively soon though, I'll get shot down now by a group of people saying "ive run bodies for 20 million miles and I always drive to work harder than Vettel does in an F1 car" etc no doubt, but im of the opinion the standard F4R engine just isnt reliable at high rpm, the rod bolts dont like it and the pistons are very variable in casting quality. Also the heads of the valves like to fall off.
So personally I'd want to budget a few grand for a set of rods and pistons with a rebore and some better valves etc. And then once you are that far in you may as well do the whole job properly and spend some more money.

Its pretty easy to do 10K in parts alone to build a decent F4R thats going to last.

RS2 is a good option that retains all the standard drivability and gives you a bit extra without tempting you into killing your engine prematurely like bodies do.

 

[ian-speedy]

Jenveys are what I have and I belive they give the best torque and power throughout the rev range when mapped well

Where did you get the carbon backing piece for your air filter from , I need one for my golf as it has a flat alloy one on and the filters are tight up against the trumpets

 

[Chip-mk1]

Ian, Jenvey sell them:

http://www.jenvey.co.uk/home/access...xes/jenvey-dynamics/carbon-airbox-base-abbrv1

 

[Dan519]

Where did you get the carbon backing piece for your air filter from , I need one for my golf as it has a flat alloy one on and the filters are tight up against the trumpets

there's deeper filters available too. As you already have the flat backplate in place.

This is mine with a flat backplate and 90mm trumpets

With a dished backplate You could get 120's under there. What filter do you run?

 

[ian-speedy]

Ian, Jenvey sell them:

http://www.jenvey.co.uk/home/access...xes/jenvey-dynamics/carbon-airbox-base-abbrv1

Had a look shortly after asking on here , I just ordered a jenvey throttle body kit , will take about a week to do they said , I have also ordered 2 carbon dished backplates , one for my golf and one for the clio

 

[Chip-mk1]

Cool.

Do a progress thread showing how you get on with it all.

Do you have a sadev box in your car?

 

[bozothenutter]

Dan where did you get that coilpackmount?
That is a nice place to mount them, makes it look a bit more classical (as if the distributor is mounted on the back of the camshaft)

 

[ian-speedy]

Cool.

Do a progress thread showing how you get on with it all.

Do you have a sadev box in your car?

Yes I do but I have had the final drive changed to lower the top end , makes it accelerate better for my needs

 

[Chip-mk1]

Excellent stuff, should be a proper little weapon with a decent amount of power and the closeness of the gears will really allow you to keep a potentially peaky engine on the boil too

What do you use it for? Is it rallying or in some race series?

 

[Dan519]

Dan where did you get that coilpackmount?
That is a nice place to mount them, makes it look a bit more classical (as if the distributor is mounted on the back of the camshaft)

I made it. I'd a very simple folded piece of steel with some holes drilled, a bit cut out around the underside of the coil, and bolted on

 

[bozothenutter]

I made it. I'd a very simple folded piece of steel with some holes drilled, a bit cut out around the underside of the coil, and bolted on

got anymore pics?

 

[ian-speedy]

Excellent stuff, should be a proper little weapon with a decent amount of power and the closeness of the gears will really allow you to keep a potentially peaky engine on the boil too

What do you use it for? Is it rallying or in some race series?

Its for rallying , check out my build thread and there are some in car videos of some of the rallies I have done in it

 

[Porkie]

I'd aim to spend heading towards 2K to put a set of bodies on my own car, you'll typically pay more than that though if you are paying full retail on all the bits and paying labour for someone else to do the work.

If you are going for bodies its a bit of a waste not to change the cams as well as the bodies will really allow you to get the most from an increase in cams, but the problem then is that Im not a fan of just fitting bodies and cams to a standard F4R unless you are happy with the fact you may have to do some engine swaps relatively soon though, I'll get shot down now by a group of people saying "ive run bodies for 20 million miles and I always drive to work harder than Vettel does in an F1 car" etc no doubt, but im of the opinion the standard F4R engine just isnt reliable at high rpm, the rod bolts dont like it and the pistons are very variable in casting quality. Also the heads of the valves like to fall off.
So personally I'd want to budget a few grand for a set of rods and pistons with a rebore and some better valves etc. And then once you are that far in you may as well do the whole job properly and spend some more money.

Its pretty easy to do 10K in parts alone to build a decent F4R thats going to last.

I think this was the chat we had when you called up to say I had a broken piston....

I was drunk and got excited so just said OK!

AMAZING engine though. SOOOOOOOOOOOOO pleased with it!

Wouldn't advise ANYONE else to go as far as I have though.

Unless its for a competition car like Ian or you are just stoooopid with money like me!

For a road car that does few trackdays a year? std engine or RS2 1000000000000000000% of the time.

 

[SharkyUK]

I think this was the chat we had when you called up to say I had a broken piston....

I was drunk and got excited so just said OK!

AMAZING engine though. SOOOOOOOOOOOOO pleased with it!

Wouldn't advise ANYONE else to go as far as I have though.

Unless its for a competition car like Ian or you are just stoooopid with money like me!

For a road car that does few trackdays a year? std engine or RS2 1000000000000000000% of the time.

...but we need folk like you as it's good to push the envelope a bit now and again. To see what can be done with a few pennies thrown at it. If I had the money I'd do the same, mate. Sadly it's going to take me a while though. LOL!

 

[ian-speedy]

I think this was the chat we had when you called up to say I had a broken piston....

I was drunk and got excited so just said OK!

AMAZING engine though. SOOOOOOOOOOOOO pleased with it!

Wouldn't advise ANYONE else to go as far as I have though.

Unless its for a competition car like Ian or you are just stoooopid with money like me!

For a road car that does few trackdays a year? std engine or RS2 1000000000000000000% of the time.

Whats the spec , power and torque of your engine ?

 

[Silent_Scone]

Silly, Silly and silly

 

[Chip-mk1]

Whats the spec , power and torque of your engine ?

Nothing like suitable for your requirements mate.
He has forged pistons and steel rods and inconel exhaust valves and one piece inlet valves etc all in the interests of it not breaking, not for more power.
Lee's cams are way too mild and his compression only increased a bit, we were building it to be capable of a decent number of miles and only upgraded it a bit power wise while we where there.
212bhp and 160ish lbft


Noticeably better than the standard engine was, but not by any means a race engine, it could have been another 20bhp for the same money with just hotter cams and more compression (it has a worked head too, just cause as it was being rebuild with new guides and valves etc it seemed rude not to, lol) but then of course longevity and road manners would have been reduced, and this is a car he lends to everyone in the world to just jump in and abuse and take on trips to the ring etc. So very different to your requirements.

 

[Chip-mk1]

I think this was the chat we had when you called up to say I had a broken piston....

I was drunk and got excited so just said OK!

Gutted!
Didnt realise you were drunk, if I had known that then I would have suggested a turbo instead, lol

AMAZING engine though. SOOOOOOOOOOOOO pleased with it!

Glad you are enjoying it mate, that makes all the effort worthwhile.
Feels nice to have finally paid you back one of the 20 million favours I owed you, lol

Wouldn't advise ANYONE else to go as far as I have though.

Unless its for a competition car like Ian or you are just stoooopid with money like me!

For a road car that does few trackdays a year? std engine or RS2 1000000000000000000% of the time.

Agreed, if you were to replicate what you had including the bits from this time, the bodies from before, the diff etc, you're talking 10 grand plus even with no labour charges at all, which makes no sense for most people, but for the sheer amount of trackday miles yours does it makes sense for your very specific circumstances.

 

[ian-speedy]

I ordered Wossner high comp pistons , steel rods , 3 layer headgasket and bearings yesterday , will start looking for a good donor engine today as I want to keep my car complete and usable until the new engine is dynoed and ready to fit.

After speaking to people the last few weeks , I'm being told the valve size is a limiting factor in HP figures as you can't flow enough air through the standard sized ones , anyone know the largest valves you can fit into a fully worked head ?

I have 3 people in line to do the head for me after have recommendations from others , so just need to decide who now

I bought a 182 manifold on ebay a few weeks ago , maybe i'll speak to simpson race exhausts to see if they can better it , my golf rally car is going to them next week to have a S2000 spec manifold and system made for it , I'm also having a full spec engine built for that at the moment and am looking for about 250hp from that as well , it would seem that they struggle to get good power as well as the clio's.

Its amazing they are getting close on 300hp for the 2.0lt Vauxhall and Ford Duratec engines !

 

[Fred@BTM]

well if you're using stock length rods you won't be getting 250bhp that's for sure!

 

[Chip-mk1]

well if you're using stock length rods you won't be getting 250bhp that's for sure!

Yeah the standard rod ratio is terrible. Need to be moving the Gudgeon pin up as far as possible.

Compared to an XE the bore/stroke ratio is rubbish too as well as the rod ratio.

The engine geometry is just all totally wrong for big rpm.

 

[Westyfield2]

maybe i'll speak to simpson race exhausts to see if they can better it , my golf rally car is going to them next week to have a S2000 spec manifold and system made for it

Matt Simspon's a top bloke . Would be intrigued to see what he could do for a Clio.

 

[Vicky.]

Matt @ TDF is very knowledgable when it comes to the cup racers so I'd give him a ring for any advice you might need. I got my ITB's fitted there and couldn't be happier with the setup.

Sounds like the car will be awesome when finished so stick up a project thread .