Williams or Valver

[Swervin_Mervin]

Looking to change in the new year. The car will be my daily runner for a couple of years before becoming an out and out weekend/trackday car.

A Xsara VTS is currently on my list, and also a 94 Clio.

With regards to the Clio, which one? Williams or Valver.

It seems to me that the Willy isnt much quicker, but obviously theres the handling improvements, and the kudos. But given I live near Benchill and Wythenshawe is the Willy likely to attract more of the wrong kind of attention?

 

[Daz.]

If your converting it to a track car then leave the Willy alone - theres not enough of them left around to start butchering!

Plus the money youd save getting a valver would give you more dosh to spend!

 

[u33db]

The Xsara would certain be the less nickable (status and security wise) but its also a big car. The clio is certainly the better bet for your needs.....Youre right in some ways...the williams aint that much quicker in a straight line but throw some junctions/bends at it and itll beat the valver hands down (more torque and more power at lower revs). If you can get a williams then go for it otherwise the valver is a v. good second....

 

[Swervin_Mervin]

Thats what I was thinking DazOrz. Id feel a little less guilty about stripping out a valver or Xsara.

Ive always quite liked the Xsara for some strange reason. Had a 1.6 before the Clio. Guess it will comed down to driving them ultimately. Would be a shame to leave the Cliosport haven though. Specially since there isnt one for Xsaras.

 

[Swervin_Mervin]

Someone on evo has said that the Williams not only had revised struts etc, but a double skinned subframe as well. Would this be an easy and relatively cheap conversion on a valver?

And how would the valver hold up to supercharging? Cos if I get a Xsara VTS, that WILL be being supercharged at some point in its life.

 

[u33db]

Havent ever heard of a valver being supercharged but i have seen a kit on some italian site so it must be possible. The most common route tends to be either turbocharging or throttle bodies - either of these option would give you the power youre after at probably a smaller cost....

Id take a look at bb performance tuning for turbo options ( http://www.bbperformancetuning.co.ukwww.bbperformancetuning.co.uk ) or Prima racing. I think primas site is down right now but an online copy of their catalog can be got from here 9the page youre after anyway) .... http://www.yscorporation.co.jp/catalog/PrimaRacing/p45.htmlhttp://www.yscorporation.co.jp/catalog/PrimaRacing/p45.html

What power gain are wanting from the valver or willy anyway??

 

[Swervin_Mervin]

Well, I dunno. I first fell in love with the idea of supercharging after reading the old Revs article on the GMC Saxo, and vowed that at some point I would do it. Always planned to do it with a Xsara.

But now Ive been in a Valver theyre on my list of possible replacements. Im not saying I will supercharge a Valver. Just wondered really. If however I get a VTS Xsara, I will definitely be supercharging it.

 

[u33db]

I know what you mean....ive always wanted a 5 Turbo but since now ive got a valver the next best thing would be turboing it but dont know if i can justify the cost on a k-reg clio!!

I think K-Tec do a low pressure conversion (take the 16v to 200bhp or so) for about 2-3k but i feel itd be second best to the bb conversion (300bhp plus but a brutal 5-7k). Looks like itll be the throttle body kit for me.....with headwork, cams etc itd push 210bhp or so but with instant response unlike the turbo....sweet!

P.S The supercharger link i found was at http://www.plracing.com/volumetrici.htmhttp://www.plracing.com/volumetrici.htm. Hope you understand italian!!

 

[Swervin_Mervin]

Cool. Im not a fan of the turbo route TBH. Id rather keep the natural torque band of the NA engine. A supercharger would retain this of course. Do throttle bodies give a similar torque spread to NA.

 

[u33db]

I think so m8 - basically it just more air going into the engine (throttle per cylinder as oppossed to one throttle for the 4) so id expect about 30-50% more torque over the entire rev range unlike a sudden spike youd get with a turbo.... Theyre cheaper and more reliable than the supercharger too - no real moving parts and they dont rob any power by using belts etc....best route IMO...

 

[Swervin_Mervin]

How many beans are we talking for TBs?

 

[u33db]

Apparently K-tec and Hillpower can do them but unsure of the prices. Prima do 2 kits - a normal conversion and a downdraft conversion (whatever that is) and youll be no more than 3k including fitting (that with a new EMS fully mapped)...

Id suggest getting the most out of the car as-is before having them fitted (cams, headwork etc) so that you dont need to mess about later on and have everything ready...You dont want to have to yank the engine out afterwards to bung in a new clutch etc! Unfortunately, I know Ill need a new gearbox and uprated clutch first as im on 130k....

 

[Swervin_Mervin]

Do you know anything about the double skinned subframes?

 

[u33db]

No but i wouldnt think it likely...the williams is essentially the same car (body wise) as the valver and is supposed to be slightly lighter so I cant see the subframe being double skinned. It might be true maybe on the later willys (2 or 3) and various other things were revised...maybe someone else can confirm/deny this??

 

[Swervin_Mervin]

Guy that posts on evo said it. Said he used to work at a dealership, and that most people didnt knoww that they were double skinned.



It would presumably make them stiffer?

 

[u33db]

True but the willy bodies ive seen seem as flimsy as valvers - esp noticable round sunroofs as the roof crumples a bit on both of them... Would be nice to know tho!

 

[MarkRS]

Ive looked at 6 williams 3s trying to find one ( no luck yet )and although not been up to my standard condition wise, they have ALL been perfect round the sunroof, was expecting to find some of them bent, but no probs on any yet.

 

[u33db]

Think the roof issue is mainly apparent on older, high millage models esp. if theyve been lowered. Hard to say like and would be interesting to know! However, if the williams did have the stiffer subframes then wed have been unlikely to have seen any 16v rally cars as the willy would be the basis for all competition cars and we know this aint true.....

 

[Ben j]

mike where r u in the world?

 

[Swervin_Mervin]

Sunny Manchester dude. Whats this roof issue?

 

[u33db]

Nothing major but 16v/willys tend to exhibit a bit of warping around the rear edges of the sunroof. Noticable on lowered and higher millage cars but as said, its nothing major and you only notice it when looking along the roof....it aint a huge gully!