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172 inlet manifold PTFE gasket
- Thread starter hill_power_clio
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For all the good intention, does the fact that the manifold forms a giant blanket around the engine, and that the contact points make up about 5% of the total surface area, not raise a flag to anyone?
The only time i have seen insulating gaskets work is when thier thickness is sunstantial and the manifold sits away from the engine.
Cheap PTFE material also tents to deform during use.......i generally take them off all the cars that come with them in.
The only time i have seen insulating gaskets work is when thier thickness is sunstantial and the manifold sits away from the engine.
Cheap PTFE material also tents to deform during use.......i generally take them off all the cars that come with them in.
The most heat will get conducted through the mating surfaces however
Its a case of every little helps in my opinion, not a "oh god I must have got like 15HP dude"
It will be a difficult modification to do a 172 not so hard on a 182. Like I said for what its worth I'll do a write up (when photobucket works) although not perfect (far from) its not bad, at worst it provides a guide for someone to remove there inlet.
Its a case of every little helps in my opinion, not a "oh god I must have got like 15HP dude"
It will be a difficult modification to do a 172 not so hard on a 182. Like I said for what its worth I'll do a write up (when photobucket works) although not perfect (far from) its not bad, at worst it provides a guide for someone to remove there inlet.
I'm not stopping anyone, just remember that alluminium is an excellent heat conductor, which is why all aircooled engines and radiators are made from it.
Just as easily as it sheds heat in cool airflow, it absorbs heat.
I would argue that the contact points contribute but a small percentage of the heat conducted.
Just as easily as it sheds heat in cool airflow, it absorbs heat.
I would argue that the contact points contribute but a small percentage of the heat conducted.
There is no 'cooling' airflow in the engine bay considering that all the airflow first passes through the radiator.
Basically your stuck with a hot thing in a hot place.
Unless your plannig on a composite inlet manifold with an external air pickup, i wouldnt worry too much about insulating components, its all just too compact to isolate anything.
Basically your stuck with a hot thing in a hot place.
Unless your plannig on a composite inlet manifold with an external air pickup, i wouldnt worry too much about insulating components, its all just too compact to isolate anything.
You certainly have a point & I'm not going to argue with you because I very much doubt you are wrong - but i still stick with my initial comment of every little helps.
Although it will look pony and trap would foam act as a good insulating agent or would this just keep the heat in? Maybe some heat shielding I'm just toying now
Come on Ben throw some ideas into the loop!
Edit: just read your last post properly, I'm a dooshbag ignore me
Although it will look pony and trap would foam act as a good insulating agent or would this just keep the heat in? Maybe some heat shielding I'm just toying now
Come on Ben throw some ideas into the loop!
Edit: just read your last post properly, I'm a dooshbag ignore me
Last edited:
Golf V6 4Motion
I think it is a case of every little helps...
Whilst the contact point is minimal and heat reduction will only be reduced by a small amount using this gasket will still help...
Finally we don't use the cheap PTFE, we use best grade we can source...
Valver engine bays get extremely hot yet we have seen really good changes using this PTFE gaskets on them - agreed they don't have a blanket of an inlet manifold around them but I can't see the engine bay overall heat being much different or am I wrong?
Ben - im not going to argue with you because you do know your stuff but surely this mod is just another inline which will help everyone along to make their car that little bit better?
Sorry to rebump this but I was checking to see if Fred had put up post reporting on our gaskets fitment yet - will chase again.
Whilst the contact point is minimal and heat reduction will only be reduced by a small amount using this gasket will still help...
Finally we don't use the cheap PTFE, we use best grade we can source...
Valver engine bays get extremely hot yet we have seen really good changes using this PTFE gaskets on them - agreed they don't have a blanket of an inlet manifold around them but I can't see the engine bay overall heat being much different or am I wrong?
Ben - im not going to argue with you because you do know your stuff but surely this mod is just another inline which will help everyone along to make their car that little bit better?
Sorry to rebump this but I was checking to see if Fred had put up post reporting on our gaskets fitment yet - will chase again.
Cetainly dont let me stop you.
Your main problem is that alluminium is used primarily as a heat sink due to its thermal properties, everything from aircooled engines to computer chip heat sinks, and its efficiency can be seen by just how hot and how fast a processor chip can overheat and blow up without a simple heatsink on.
Your engine bay temps will be around 80-90 deg at close proximity to the engine long block, and the air off the rad will be about 60-90 deg. Now sure, every little helps but there is a point where time and money becomes wasted.
If you put an inlet manifold in the oven at 80 deg, it will reach 80 deg, irrespective if you sheild all contact points.
So, for the cost of the gaskets to the customer, the cost of install, the required modification due to thickness change makes it irrreversable...just seems pointless IMO.
And going from my experience with jap cars an insulated gaskets, they do little, seal poorly, morph with heat over time. I usually whip them straight off and throw them in the bin.
Your main problem is that alluminium is used primarily as a heat sink due to its thermal properties, everything from aircooled engines to computer chip heat sinks, and its efficiency can be seen by just how hot and how fast a processor chip can overheat and blow up without a simple heatsink on.
Your engine bay temps will be around 80-90 deg at close proximity to the engine long block, and the air off the rad will be about 60-90 deg. Now sure, every little helps but there is a point where time and money becomes wasted.
If you put an inlet manifold in the oven at 80 deg, it will reach 80 deg, irrespective if you sheild all contact points.
So, for the cost of the gaskets to the customer, the cost of install, the required modification due to thickness change makes it irrreversable...just seems pointless IMO.
And going from my experience with jap cars an insulated gaskets, they do little, seal poorly, morph with heat over time. I usually whip them straight off and throw them in the bin.
Golf V6 4Motion
I agree - there are some really crap PTFE gaskets out there - some of the ones on ebay are really poor...
However the material we use is very high quality and people are even using them on the clio williams forum to try and fix air leaks on the throttle body - i.e. for a better seal not worse.
Again a better grade of material shouldn't morph either - one main purpose behind the gaskets is that they are reuseable. Also because PTFE isn't affected by oil/fuel or vibrations caused by higher revving, harder engine mounts, derestriced exhausts, etc. so they should, in theory outlast the life of the car.
But agree Ben I see you points and take them onboard - the stupid design of the inlet does mean it will get warm no matter what. The oven theory again is a good way of looking at it however having seen the positive results from the clio 16v gaskets they must lower temps - an oven is a much more stable temp state but yes you could easily cook you dinner off a 172 manifold lol. Seriously though putting a barrier - even if it has to be a thinner one due to fitting issues - between the head and the inlet can only be a good thing and helps matters a little. Some of the best 106's on the rallye forum are made of many small mods - every little helps. Appreciate that there is a point where fitting/price etc doesn't balance out the small performance gain....
Personally I think that we should treat these gaskets as a 'may as well' mod... if you are changing/porting/removing your manifold - 'why not'. ?
Having discussed this with Dan172 who had fitted a 3mm thick gasket is own comments are (hope you dont mind mate!):
"The inlets did stay much cooler, a noticeable amount to touch after a decent run out, and including stop start traffic, and id say that every little helps! Must be better than the standard item at the end of the day."
All of which is the sort of feedback I would expect.
Now Fred has trial fitted the gaskets and has confirmed that a gasket we supplied him to trial at 1.6mm does fit though the bolt hole issue for one of the mounts is an issue a few people have raised... yozzasport have had that bolt (im sure you know the one I mean) missing from their clio for about 30k now without issue however for peace of mind I'm guessing you would all be happier if it was there?! Again speaking to Dan172 he is of the opinion a roughly 1.5mm PTFE gasket would fit as per OE - i.e. no modifications or anything needed - all bolts in place!
And for those of you who are running throttle bodies - how thick would you like it - seriously though got a few people running bodies who are interested in 3mm gaskets so drop me a PM if you too want one.
Obviously at 1-2mm thickness price would be further reduced from the initial 3mm price.
Will update further as I'm still waiting for a bit of feedback confirmation.
However the material we use is very high quality and people are even using them on the clio williams forum to try and fix air leaks on the throttle body - i.e. for a better seal not worse.
Again a better grade of material shouldn't morph either - one main purpose behind the gaskets is that they are reuseable. Also because PTFE isn't affected by oil/fuel or vibrations caused by higher revving, harder engine mounts, derestriced exhausts, etc. so they should, in theory outlast the life of the car.
But agree Ben I see you points and take them onboard - the stupid design of the inlet does mean it will get warm no matter what. The oven theory again is a good way of looking at it however having seen the positive results from the clio 16v gaskets they must lower temps - an oven is a much more stable temp state but yes you could easily cook you dinner off a 172 manifold lol. Seriously though putting a barrier - even if it has to be a thinner one due to fitting issues - between the head and the inlet can only be a good thing and helps matters a little. Some of the best 106's on the rallye forum are made of many small mods - every little helps. Appreciate that there is a point where fitting/price etc doesn't balance out the small performance gain....
Personally I think that we should treat these gaskets as a 'may as well' mod... if you are changing/porting/removing your manifold - 'why not'. ?
Having discussed this with Dan172 who had fitted a 3mm thick gasket is own comments are (hope you dont mind mate!):
"The inlets did stay much cooler, a noticeable amount to touch after a decent run out, and including stop start traffic, and id say that every little helps! Must be better than the standard item at the end of the day."
All of which is the sort of feedback I would expect.
Now Fred has trial fitted the gaskets and has confirmed that a gasket we supplied him to trial at 1.6mm does fit though the bolt hole issue for one of the mounts is an issue a few people have raised... yozzasport have had that bolt (im sure you know the one I mean) missing from their clio for about 30k now without issue however for peace of mind I'm guessing you would all be happier if it was there?! Again speaking to Dan172 he is of the opinion a roughly 1.5mm PTFE gasket would fit as per OE - i.e. no modifications or anything needed - all bolts in place!
And for those of you who are running throttle bodies - how thick would you like it - seriously though got a few people running bodies who are interested in 3mm gaskets so drop me a PM if you too want one.
Obviously at 1-2mm thickness price would be further reduced from the initial 3mm price.
Will update further as I'm still waiting for a bit of feedback confirmation.
Wrap the manifold in gold leaf then lol.
I've no idea what bolt your talking about, but when you fit up the manifold with OEM gaskets, its still tight as funk.
Would work on the bodies.
Most of the ones i've worked with are on hondas and evo's and they suck.......not a chance they will outlast the car. If your really clever you'd be using a resin based material and O ringing it......ptfe seals like crap unless you clamp it real hard, in which case it deforms. You'll have to make it with about 1mm extra clearance around the port just so it doesnt protrude into it.
I've no idea what bolt your talking about, but when you fit up the manifold with OEM gaskets, its still tight as funk.
Would work on the bodies.
Most of the ones i've worked with are on hondas and evo's and they suck.......not a chance they will outlast the car. If your really clever you'd be using a resin based material and O ringing it......ptfe seals like crap unless you clamp it real hard, in which case it deforms. You'll have to make it with about 1mm extra clearance around the port just so it doesnt protrude into it.
Golf V6 4Motion
Right - I won't get a batch made - I will contact someone on here to trial a PTFE version following Fred's comments for thickness and see if there is any temp reduction - following a definitive test we will see if there is any scope for these at all.
benr - I know you really know your stuff so there's no way I'm arguing with you.... all I know is I have a fair few friends with civic/integra's using hondata gaskets which are 3mm PTFE and they are all happy as a pig in sh1t with them.... maybe there are just good and bad ones? Point taken about the seal - I have never seen any issues with this but would certainly take it onboard for fitment purposes and if we could maybe get an exact torque setting whereby the gasket isn't disfiguired but is tight enough?
Doesn't the OE gasket have clearance around the ports? I wouldn't design them exact to the port holes they would be a copy of the OE item - there are that many variations on clio inlet mani port size it would be crazy to make them exact don't you think?
I am not pretending to know a huge amount about this - we are all just trying to make our cars better without spending mega bucks at the end of the day so any info is always gratefully rec'd.
Thanks again!
benr - I know you really know your stuff so there's no way I'm arguing with you.... all I know is I have a fair few friends with civic/integra's using hondata gaskets which are 3mm PTFE and they are all happy as a pig in sh1t with them.... maybe there are just good and bad ones? Point taken about the seal - I have never seen any issues with this but would certainly take it onboard for fitment purposes and if we could maybe get an exact torque setting whereby the gasket isn't disfiguired but is tight enough?
Doesn't the OE gasket have clearance around the ports? I wouldn't design them exact to the port holes they would be a copy of the OE item - there are that many variations on clio inlet mani port size it would be crazy to make them exact don't you think?
I am not pretending to know a huge amount about this - we are all just trying to make our cars better without spending mega bucks at the end of the day so any info is always gratefully rec'd.
Thanks again!
Golf V6 4Motion
Megane 2 GT 165
I don't want to pretend I know my stuff but isn't it easiest way to make the gasket precise match with the inlet-ports on the head? I guess not many people have head work done, so most are the same size? (50x30mm)
Since the ports on the inlet manifold might vary.
Also depends on the thickness of the material what size of gap you are creating between manifold and head.
Since the ports on the inlet manifold might vary.
Also depends on the thickness of the material what size of gap you are creating between manifold and head.
The OE ones have clearance yes, but they dont deform like PTFE.
I also work with hondas all day long, and even the ones on those dont last that long, unless your litereally doing a fit and forget and not planning on doing any other mods. They work better on hondas as they stand off from the engine and have a less cramped, cooler engine bay.
I also work with hondas all day long, and even the ones on those dont last that long, unless your litereally doing a fit and forget and not planning on doing any other mods. They work better on hondas as they stand off from the engine and have a less cramped, cooler engine bay.
Golf V6 4Motion
Dan172 is going to trial fit and feedback on reduction temps by measuring with accurate digital equipment - this will settle once and for all. Will relay results as soon as we have them back.
Sorry for the delay in response been off poorly
Sorry for the delay in response been off poorly
ValverInBits
Dan172 is going to trial fit and feedback on reduction temps by measuring with accurate digital equipment - this will settle once and for all. Will relay results as soon as we have them back.
Sorry for the delay in response been off poorly
eagerly awaiting
Golf V6 4Motion
think we are going to trial fit with 1mm and possibly 1.5mm if it will fit and we can get the material available.
will update shortly - material will be with us monday.
will update shortly - material will be with us monday.
Golf V6 4Motion
Hi All;
Dan172 has trial fitted 1mm and 1.5mm PTFE gasket - first thing the 1.5mm fits bang on so we may as well always run with the thicker option.
Secondly....
"....a good 4-6 degrees C lower throughout all the time compared to before! I did the same drive as before, with the outside temp exactly the same at 8 degrees C...and in town it was noticably 4 degrees lower than recorded temp of previous test(doing 30-40mph...roundabouts etc), as moved out of town doing 60-70mph constantly, the temp had dropped 5 full degrees constant compared to the recorded temp of the same test before!" Dan172
We could only source the 1.5mm in smaller sheets so was made in 2 pieces - not sure if this would be the same going fwd but apparently no problem fitting, it is perfect size wise etc, and many cars have them in 2 pieces (i.e. 106 rallye etc). Maybe if we could get in one sheet it would perform even better!?
Now by my reckoning that should be good for roughly a 1.5-2% increase. If you do the sums thats not a bad increase for the £ but like BenR says upto you if you think it is worth the effort... would seem silly not to if you were changing your manifold or getting it ported etc anyway.
Lastly - we are also going to trial (probably 1mm) a gasket between the plenum and manifold to see if this helps things further (again thanks to Dan172 who has volunteered his services!)... we will investigate to see if this shows any worthwhile gains and report back shortly.
If we do see improvements using this one as well then we would probably offer them as a package at more reduced price.
Obviously a 172 doesn't have 172bhp but just for ballpark figures - 172 + 2% = 175.44bhp.
Will update once we have news on the gasket between plenum and mani. Does anybody have a spare gasket for between the two or can advise part number?
Dan172 has trial fitted 1mm and 1.5mm PTFE gasket - first thing the 1.5mm fits bang on so we may as well always run with the thicker option.
Secondly....
"....a good 4-6 degrees C lower throughout all the time compared to before! I did the same drive as before, with the outside temp exactly the same at 8 degrees C...and in town it was noticably 4 degrees lower than recorded temp of previous test(doing 30-40mph...roundabouts etc), as moved out of town doing 60-70mph constantly, the temp had dropped 5 full degrees constant compared to the recorded temp of the same test before!" Dan172
We could only source the 1.5mm in smaller sheets so was made in 2 pieces - not sure if this would be the same going fwd but apparently no problem fitting, it is perfect size wise etc, and many cars have them in 2 pieces (i.e. 106 rallye etc). Maybe if we could get in one sheet it would perform even better!?
Now by my reckoning that should be good for roughly a 1.5-2% increase. If you do the sums thats not a bad increase for the £ but like BenR says upto you if you think it is worth the effort... would seem silly not to if you were changing your manifold or getting it ported etc anyway.
Lastly - we are also going to trial (probably 1mm) a gasket between the plenum and manifold to see if this helps things further (again thanks to Dan172 who has volunteered his services!)... we will investigate to see if this shows any worthwhile gains and report back shortly.
If we do see improvements using this one as well then we would probably offer them as a package at more reduced price.
Obviously a 172 doesn't have 172bhp but just for ballpark figures - 172 + 2% = 175.44bhp.
Will update once we have news on the gasket between plenum and mani. Does anybody have a spare gasket for between the two or can advise part number?
Golf V6 4Motion
Dont suppose you have template/part number/spare gasket for between plenum/mani?
Coby.
ClioSport Club Member
XC60-R.......V40-R
I've been thinking about doing this for a while afterspeaking with Mattjk but am too lazy to do it TBH, If these start to get produced I'll definitely take a Set
Mattjk - At least your Guessing was Correct when we were talking about lowering the inlet temps
Mattjk - At least your Guessing was Correct when we were talking about lowering the inlet temps
Golf V6 4Motion
they will be produced mate no doubt
Golf V6 4Motion
No there not brittle at all.... piece of p1ss to post! i package them up strongly with layers of cardboard.
Thanks for part number!
Thanks for part number!
APR LCR225
Part of my pm to Chris:
"There is a definite drop in inlet manifold contact temp(temp of the metal) a good 4-6 degrees C lower throughout all the time compared to before. I did the same drive as before, with the outside temp exactly the same at 8 degrees C...and in town it was noticably 4 degrees lower than recorded temp of previous test(doing 30-40mph...roundabouts etc), as moved out of town doing 60-70mph constantly, the temp had dropped 5 full degrees constant compared to the recorded temp of the same test before previous.
Obviously its hard to monitor exactly, with temps fluctuating and driving situations changing, but it has definitely showed it was present on the thermometer, as i ran several times over the weekend to see where it settled and became reasonably constant at certain speeds/runs
Granted its not going to be a noiticable gain of any type on the road, but its bound to do some good, keeping inlet temps cooler for longer, delaying heat soak, better combustion etc etc.
As for the plenum to inlet mani gasket, i did mention in my last pm, that its bound to improve it further, by reducing any further temp transfer from carrying up to the plenum. You would deffo be best using the 1mm ptfe for that though, as to ensure correct fit with oil breather at back of plenum etc.."
I can assure anyone looking at getting a set from Chris, that they do perform well and the quality is second to none, absolutely perfect fit with my ported inlets and easy to fit
"There is a definite drop in inlet manifold contact temp(temp of the metal) a good 4-6 degrees C lower throughout all the time compared to before. I did the same drive as before, with the outside temp exactly the same at 8 degrees C...and in town it was noticably 4 degrees lower than recorded temp of previous test(doing 30-40mph...roundabouts etc), as moved out of town doing 60-70mph constantly, the temp had dropped 5 full degrees constant compared to the recorded temp of the same test before previous.
Obviously its hard to monitor exactly, with temps fluctuating and driving situations changing, but it has definitely showed it was present on the thermometer, as i ran several times over the weekend to see where it settled and became reasonably constant at certain speeds/runs
Granted its not going to be a noiticable gain of any type on the road, but its bound to do some good, keeping inlet temps cooler for longer, delaying heat soak, better combustion etc etc.
As for the plenum to inlet mani gasket, i did mention in my last pm, that its bound to improve it further, by reducing any further temp transfer from carrying up to the plenum. You would deffo be best using the 1mm ptfe for that though, as to ensure correct fit with oil breather at back of plenum etc.."
I can assure anyone looking at getting a set from Chris, that they do perform well and the quality is second to none, absolutely perfect fit with my ported inlets and easy to fit
Should you not be measuring the air temp, as that is what affects air density.
Even if you do reduce the actual air temp by a straight 5 dec c, that is an increase in air density of roughly 1.43% with constant humiduty and baro conditions.
You will get significant gains by reducing air temps in the regions of 20-40% with sealed cold air feeds, but that might only equate to a 8-10% increase in density which is valuable.
Even if you do reduce the actual air temp by a straight 5 dec c, that is an increase in air density of roughly 1.43% with constant humiduty and baro conditions.
You will get significant gains by reducing air temps in the regions of 20-40% with sealed cold air feeds, but that might only equate to a 8-10% increase in density which is valuable.
APR LCR225
I thought the metal temp was far easier to measure Ben, as it stays more constant for longer, as opposed to inlet temp which changes so quickly, and if any constant values were to be obtained for the actual intake air (be it on dyno or whatever), the change would ultimately be down to the contact temp of the manifold.
Golf V6 4Motion
Hi mate...
Can get the manifold gaskets in 1.5mm out to you now but we are going to trial run the additional plenum to manifold gasket as well so was going to wait for that first and offer them at a discounted bulk buy sort of thing.
1.5mm manifold gasket alone will probably only be about £22-23 delivered (1st class recorded delivery). I would hope as a set (i.e. 1.5mm manifold and 1mm plenum to manifold) we could get out for £40.
Not even going to argue about the usefulness of the gaskets - people can make their own opinion of it now. Just to say a lot of people have enquired and bought these from me for other cars (mainly GTIR, Valver/Willy) with high feedback, good results and people who have removed and refitted have never found anything untoward.
Following Ben R's comments - you should use a sealed cold air feed for good results. Use these in conjunction - that way every little helps. Fit water injection if you are a more competent mechanic and have a bigger bank balance.
It is important to take onboard everyones comments and make the decision yourself to buy - I don't promise results I am just going by what people relay back and think - so far so good! :approve:
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