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Difference between itb trumpet sizes
- Thread starter Andycollins
- Start date
Lag = time period between opening the throttle and the torque reaching 100lbft per litre
LMFAO well thats infinite for me - cos I never make 200lbft anywhere ever
Indeed, so reducing time down from infinite to under a second, is a big reduction in lag
ITBs are just lag-lag-lag-lag-rev limiter, change gear start again lag-lag-lag-lag-rev limiter etc
Indeed, so reducing time down from infinite to under a second, is a big reduction in lag
ITBs are just lag-lag-lag-lag-rev limiter, change gear start again lag-lag-lag-lag-rev limiter etc
While the turbo cars are in the pits in a pool of melted pistons, turbo failures and drivability faults iirc.
Nah, not at 200lbft, thats such a mild state of tune for a 2 litre turbo that nothing is stressed at all, where as the same from N/A and it wont last very many miles at all.
Turbo gives you the ability to make moderate power very safely (ie say 300bhp and 300lbft from a 2 litre engine), but also gives you the ability to get carried away, which is where people end up with damage, from pushing components too far just cause its easy to do so when you can wind the boost up, but if specced and built sensibly there is no reason at all for any reliability issues.
Sounds hypocrtical coming from someone who you know currently has a melted piston on a turbo car I realise, but thats just because I was silly enough to run the injectors far too hard and end up damaging one, if I had just had the patience to get hold of some bigger ones before turning the boost up, Id have had no such problem, so was just a schoolboy error not an indication that turbos cant be reliable. You'll find most turbo car failures are similar things, sadly when you give people an easy way to keep increasing power, even ones who should know better can be tempted into being silly, with N/A on a similar budget though you are just stuck slow with no option, lol.
We'll stop this here, been through it before.
Charged Clio's drop like flies on here due to constant problems, whether that's bad workmanship or the unreliability of cheap bolt on kits (which are more than cams, throttle bodies money with some change) I don't know, I'll draw my own conclusion from that.
Charged Clio's drop like flies on here due to constant problems, whether that's bad workmanship or the unreliability of cheap bolt on kits (which are more than cams, throttle bodies money with some change) I don't know, I'll draw my own conclusion from that.
LOL yeah and charged clio's don't pull away from itb clios as much as chip would like you to think
I'll fit my gopro for the next east mids meet
I'll fit my gopro for the next east mids meet
Its from people expecting too much for too little, simple as that, done properly though they are reliable with a turbo, the MWM spec mine was first done to for example (260bhp/250lbft), it did over 10,000 miles in that state of tune on a very tired old bottom end to start with (ie worse than most peoples, mike deliberately used a bad example or prove a point), it was only when I (because I knew I was replacing the engine soon anyway) started winding the boost up that it caused a problem.
Same for Mike's bothers one, thats done about 20K miles and no engine issues at all, they CAN be reliable, if people are sensible about what they ask from a tired old bottom end, loads of people fit ITB kits and set the limited too high and have similar issues where they drop a valve or have a rod bolt fail, but again thats not the fault of the ITBs itself, just of people expecting too much from a standard engine.
LOL yeah and charged clio's don't pull away from itb clios as much as chip would like you to think
I left your car easier than your car would leave a standard one IMHO. I could hear when you were full throttle and when I was too the difference was huge, but I wasnt at full throttle for anywhere near as long as you (as I just didnt need to go and do 175mph to prove a point) so you might have a skewed view of how close it was or not I guess as you wouldnt know that.
So its made more than the twice the difference your ITBs have.
Wether you view that as a significant difference or not is up to you.
Cool, we can do two videos, one of yours versus a standard car, and one of yours versus a turbo car, and see if you are even halfway between the twoI'll fit my gopro for the next east mids meet
Jump to 2:45 in this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gy6hPSVKCVE
The silver Ph1 is cams and bodies, Id say I certainly reeled him in and spat him out quicker than the difference between an ITB car and a standard car.
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I'm not referencing your car in here as I know your just being greedy which is causing issues.
Go into every supercharged or turbocharged project thread on here and they have had problems x,y,z and they have done this, that and the next thing and now they want to split, maybe they get a 2nd wind and have another crack at an improvement but most end up in bits due to problems and cold starting, part throttle, WOT issues, turbos, heads, pistons, gearboxes.
Go into every supercharged or turbocharged project thread on here and they have had problems x,y,z and they have done this, that and the next thing and now they want to split, maybe they get a 2nd wind and have another crack at an improvement but most end up in bits due to problems and cold starting, part throttle, WOT issues, turbos, heads, pistons, gearboxes.
Sensibly viewed, my standard engined failed because I decided to see how far I could push it before it did, but a lot of people wouldnt realise that like you are doing, makes a change not having to explain that
I think that too many of the people on here doing a turbo car are taking on more than they really know how, and on too small a budget for their aims, which either means they end up with a knackered engine from exceeding what their spec is capable of or from poor mapping and if they do get the engine right, they then end up breaking the car for bits anyway when they realise how much they still have to spend as they cant drive it properly due to a combination of bad boost control, no LSD (which with 250lbft+ is just silly) and often not even proper suspension.
And thats before you get into the companies like KTEC who were trying to do it on the standard ECU without even really having the ability to properly reconfigure it to suit.
Cold starting can be just as much a problem on ITBs, ive seen loads of them not starting right either, but in both cases its purely a case of issues with mapping on aftermarket management and would happen even on a standard inlet and no boost if not mapped right.
I think that you can probably say that 90% of people or more on here with a turbo car are doing it wrong in some way, but if you look at some of the builds from AndyRG or MWM though you'll find those work well as those guys know what they are doing.
Where as ITBs being so much simpler to get right, and so much less likely to kill a standard engine (although it still happens relatively often, valves, ringlands, or just ring seal not coping with the extended high RPM use on a tired motor)
With regards to things like gearboxes then surely its always going to be the case that something that gives you 20bhp and 20lbft extra is going to be simpler to get right and show up less faults in the rest of the car than something that gives you 80bhp and 100lbft?
If you built both at 260bhp+ both with the same skillset and same budget, the turbo car would last massively longer, hence thats what manufacturers use for things like Evos and Scooby.
A shed
I'm managing to run the C603D pipercross filter withe a smaller rad, on my DTH bodies without any issues
with 120mm trumpets or the kit ones?
Id be interested to see the length difference between the ktec ones and the universal ones on a clio manifold.
from a quick look the ketc ones with 90's are the same length as the universal ones with 120's so the kit is just as good, if thats the case. if what i suspect is true the ktec kit with 120's would be longer than the universal kit and then adding the angled spacers would add even more length.
SharkyUK
ClioSport Club Member
But not everyone wants boost. And an NA car (engine) done properly on ITB's is awesome. Sure, things can go wrong (and do go wrong) but not everyone is chasing figures. I think people have to be realistic. Either be prepared to spend a lot of money and do things right, or on the cheap and increase the likelihood of something going pop. I think the latter case is commonplace on here, hence why a lot of boosted projects don't last long (same applies to NA builds, too). Getting back on topic, I don't think many people (not all) would even notice the difference between running, say, 90mm and 120mm setups; possibly noticing more of a difference between running the car on a cold day as opposed to a hot day. Maybe.
Trumpet length = Clio NA Tuning Viagra - size matters! LOL!
And an NA car (engine) done properly on ITB's is awesome. Sure, things can go wrong (and do go wrong) but not everyone is chasing figures. I think people have to be realistic. Either be prepared to spend a lot of money and do things right, or on the cheap and increase the likelihood of something going pop. I think the latter case is commonplace on here, hence why a lot of boosted projects don't last long (same applies to NA builds, too). Getting back on topic, I don't think many people (not all) would even notice the difference between running, say, 90mm and 120mm setups; possibly noticing more of a difference between running the car on a cold day as opposed to a hot day. Maybe.Trumpet length = Clio NA Tuning Viagra - size matters! LOL!
I left your car easier than your car would leave a standard one IMHO. I could hear when you were full throttle and when I was too the difference was huge, but I wasnt at full throttle for anywhere near as long as you (as I just didnt need to go and do 175mph to prove a point) so you might have a skewed view of how close it was or not I guess as you wouldnt know that.
So its made more than the twice the difference your ITBs have.
Wether you view that as a significant difference or not is up to you.
Cool, we can do two videos, one of yours versus a standard car, and one of yours versus a turbo car, and see if you are even halfway between the two
Jump to 2:45 in this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gy6hPSVKCVE
The silver Ph1 is cams and bodies, Id say I certainly reeled him in and spat him out quicker than the difference between an ITB car and a standard car.
I'm sorry but you're UTTERLY mental. My car leaves standard 1*2's for dead.
It's virtually neck and neck with Batesy's low boost turbo car (except mine isn't leaking oil or breaking down
). It's considerably faster than Mikes RS2'd car. I had to sit at half throttle down the A46 not to push him into the field lol.I really do get the feeling you must have been in some s**t ITB cars to get such a skewed opinion of them.
After watching the video I really do think you've been in some s**t ITB'd cars - it took you a LOT longer to "reel him in" than it does me to catch 1*2's on track.
I'm starting to see why you love RS2's so much if that's your opinion of ITB's
I'm starting to see why you love RS2's so much if that's your opinion of ITB's
Indeed, but Phil said he was considering it so my replies were in the context of someone who might.But not everyone wants boost.
Some people just prefer all noise and very little torque, means you can have all the drama without actually going fast, which is nice and safe and for that ITBs are literally the perfect choice, and thats why so many race series limit people to using ITBs and not boost (or allow boost but then cripple it with a restrictor), they dont want cars going mentally fast and being dangerous, the days of motorsport being dangerous and sex being safe are long gone now!
things can go wrong (and do go wrong) but not everyone is chasing figures. I think people have to be realistic. Either be prepared to spend a lot of money and do things right, or on the cheap and increase the likelihood of something going pop. I think the latter case is commonplace on here, hence why a lot of boosted projects don't last long (same applies to NA builds, too). Getting back on topic, I don't think many people (not all) would even notice the difference between running, say, 90mm and 120mm setups; possibly noticing more of a difference between running the car on a cold day as opposed to a hot day. Maybe.
Trumpet length = Clio NA Tuning Viagra - size matters! LOL!
You really can tell the difference with longer trumpets, the torque comes in sooner and harder enough to notice if you are very familiar with the car on 90s first.
Like you say though, a cold day also makes the same sort of difference and is enough to notice too.
Within a few seconds I was doing 20mph or so more than him. Not sure how you arent getting that from the video TBH, or are you delusional enough to think that your ITB car would be doing say 30mph more than a standard engined car in the same timeframe?
Tell you what, lets get some figures off my datalogger (ive got a kit to make it transferable car to car not just installed permanently in the mk1) for say 50-100 in both cars, then you will probably see the difference a bit clearer
I don't think there's much point continuing this conversation until next year. Bring the RS2'd car to cadwell, and then let me know how much quicker you think my car is over a standard one.
I think you're vastly underestimating how much a 25bhp increase and a 150kg decrease in weight effects acceleration without even considering the torque curve.
I think you're vastly underestimating how much a 25bhp increase and a 150kg decrease in weight effects acceleration without even considering the torque curve.
Do ITBs make the car 150kg lighter then? Or are you lumping a huge weight saving in with a modest power gain and then attributing the entire difference in laptime on a very twisty circuit just to the bodies?
And what about the rest of the car?
Didnt your coilovers make you 50mph faster round a roundabout or something for example? lol
Its quite literally like me putting standard shocks on my turbo, then saying "why dont your bring your coilovers car to combe and I will show you how much faster standard shocks are than coilovers" when I wipe the floor with you over a lap cause ive got 100bhp more and its a power circuit, lol.
KTM 990 SD / S60 D5
What a load of rubbish, as Chip has said to many people try and get boost on the cheap and that's what leads to problem's.
Trumpet length = Clio NA Tuning Viagra - size matters! LOL!
haha true, that's why I have 120's and plan to go bigger. Massive **** you see!!
Re read post #46, I was hinting towards the 2nd part of chips reply in post #51 without actually saying half the charged builds are mechanically shed's.
I have seen yours and it looks very well done which I have commented on in your project thread before so don't take it personal but iirc you have even had your fair share of issues despite what I can imagine you have spent.
If you have jenveys and 90mm now then yes IMHO.
I believe I have.
'twas you dear sir that switched from "an ITB'd car" to my car
I'd agree if you took a standard car and whacked ITB's on it - you wouldn't get as much a gain as if you boosted it. But you was referring to MY CAR and I'd say my car will leave a standard car a lot quicker than your car would leave mine
You have and yes 120mm's would give you a bit more mid range torque - but considering you would need it remapping after and they cost about £140 to buy. I'd wait until you can be bothered to fit 421's and then do the cams and 120mm's and remap all in one
'twas you dear sir that switched from "an ITB'd car" to my car
I'd agree if you took a standard car and whacked ITB's on it - you wouldn't get as much a gain as if you boosted it. But you was referring to MY CAR and I'd say my car will leave a standard car a lot quicker than your car would leave mine
I dont believe so, even with your weight savings.
We will get some timings form my Race Technologies data logger off yours compared to the RB and the turbo.
(The RB has got an RS2 but its such an average engine to begin with complete with worn out dephasor etc that its only as good as a good standard one really, you can drive it first to confirm this and that im not trying to plant some ringer like I would have been if saying the same about the old RS2 car which is a margin quicker than standard cars)
Whats most relevent do you think?
Obviously I could say 150-170 is the key metric but that might be a bit loaded for me, lol, so what do we think is really what matters most for a trackday, Id say 90% of trackday use falls into the 50-140mph range, so why dont we time between those two?
Even with the huge weight difference between your car and our two, I still think you are deluded saying yours will be much faster than a standard car than mine is compared to yours (feel free to get someone local with a standard one to go instead if you dont trust me that the RB is no quicker than one until I swap engines which wont be till well into next year)
Agreed, if its going to be seeing other changes, so it all at once is going to save on the mapping side of things.
A shed
They arent £140 if people are interested in the group buy........which between here and the wanted section there seems to be five people wanting 120's now?
Yes there is the whole parrel vs tapered argument but emerald saw no gain with tapered on clios and 120mm parallels are much better than any 90's, so argument aside theyre still better.
LOL
SharkyUK
ClioSport Club Member
Knowsit, brother! :cheers:haha true, that's why I have 120's and plan to go bigger. Massive **** you see!!
172
Yeah will be buying the proper ones direct from Jenvey, when get the funds. Only reason liked the ktec kit is comes with everything need for installation i.e all brackets and cable pedal etc.
182cup & 172 racecar
Then jump to 6:00
To watch the big sideways moment shortly after you mean?
If so its better jumping to about 5:40 and you can see the reason for it, I passed an escort cosworth but he didnt backoff so we ended up more or less side by side for too long of the straight and this led to me outbreaking myself, if you are trying to imply the boost is somehow related to the spin then the only way it is really is, is that if I had bodies Id have been much slower and hence WAY behind the escort still and not had that issue, lol.
182cup & 172 racecar
Touchy, just having a laugh Chip, and not trying to imply anything. So calm down.
Not touchy at all mate, just dont want people to think that a driver error (or two in fact in this case, me for making the overtake assuming he would follow the rules and back off a touch to allow me to complete it, and him for not doing so) is somehow related to whether the car has boost or not, people on here have a habbit of latching onto things for the wrong reasons.
Evo 5 RS
I'm sorry but you're UTTERLY mental. My car leaves standard 1*2's for dead.
It's virtually neck and neck with Batesy's low boost turbo car (except mine isn't leaking oil or breaking down
I really do get the feeling you must have been in some s**t ITB cars to get such a skewed opinion of them.
In an apples to oranges comparison an ITB F4R is not substantially quick enough to out pace 'considerably' a healthy standard one. It's subjective though as 'leaving for dead' is obviously opinionated lol.
A low boost FR4 is what, 240-260BHP with torque ranging from 220 to 240ft lbs. How can you honestly say with a straight face that in a car that weighs what's considered to be practically nothing - that you'd keep with one running at least 40BHP down with considerably less torque.
A shed
how much weight does a turbo kit add?
20kg maybe?
