few problems just had my car itb'd

[Nick r26r]

im also thinking they have shagged the head on the car as it was low on water when i got it back and they said it was puffing out white smoke on over run , really wish i never took my car to these guys now , they have really made a mess of the car , the car was almost stalling earlier in first gear and when i went to pull of it was bogging right down and felt like it wanted to stall , i had to dip the clutch and really rev it to get it to pull of ,

 

[Adey.]

thats such a shitter man, id come with you tomorow but im flat out already, gimme a call if u need a hand tho.

 

[Russ_16v]

Take it back again mate, if they have damaged it they have to pay for it

 

[sideways danny]

Adey, you got my number? gimme a shout if you want me to look it over

 

[mattatmtech]

Hi chaps,

Im matt from M-Tech and evening all etc anyway onto business.

Firstly, the car made 155bhp when it arrived.. low perhaps?

Secondly, the V4 ecu is our own system, ask some of the prominent tuners out there (XSport racing, Si Tech Motorsport, Green Fuel Racing) who all use our systems with great success, so we will avoid slating the system ey chaps?

Cams...

We have ditched VVT as I was adviosed cams were fitted. Usually in this case (as with the VVT ST 170 engines) you DO NOT ADVANCE cam timing as it can cause interference.

Cooling...

Well obviosuly, after tuning 1300+bhp engines, we know whow to monitor oil and water temperature while mapping, and our 3phase cooling fan which I cannot move on my own usually keeps the cars cool....

The instructions on the desk....

Were for a LINKAGE kit that we assemble almost everyday and our apprentice Kasey is learning all he can (hence they are in the OFFICE, not WORKSHOP, and usually has reference material everywhere...

Removing stock ECU...

We did advise nick of dash issues before delivery of car (huis exact words were that he was fitting a stack dash), and we said we would remove that system. Smart charge is also working and the alternator is also putting out 14.4V at idle.

If Nick is happy for us to enable the VVT output I will, and we can see what difference it makes.

I spoek to nick today, and although we road tested the car when he collected and he said he was happy, I have asked him to bring the car back to us on tuesday so we can have another look over it.

Our policy at M-tech is that we NEVER let a car leave until the customer is happy with the work as we pride ourselves on our workmanship (ask Nick about some of the other projects we have under our roof, and the quaility of the work...)

Ask him to photograph the custom pedal conversion, the general workmanship (everything soldered and heat shrunk, custom coil pack brakectry and so on)

The petrol smell (as advised again!) was due to no breather filter which nick said he would connect to his breatehr kit once he has installed it....

My plans are to get the car in on tuesday and remedie the faults. If we find it to be bad cam timing or a compression problem, then thats another story...

For the techincally minded::

Under WOT above 3,500rpm, 13.2AFR and around 36*BTDC for a MBT.

David Knights class winning clio 172 was fitted with our V4 and mapped by myself....

Cheers chaps, thoughts welcome of course, and if theres something ive missed please let me know!

Thanks,
Matt

 

[f0xy]

Im pretty sure the inlet cam needs to be advanced 16 degrees if the VVT has been removed unless it was specifically purchased from Cat as a Non-VVT cam, that could explain the lack of power... Im sure someone will confirm that...

 

[mattatmtech]

foxy that may be thecasue, Im starting to think this as well. Nick needs to confirm to us if cams are indeed fitted, first thing will be to try the VVT advance and see if the VE increases...

 

[mattatmtech]

I will post a graph tomorrow fo the before and after. Before, the torque curve was ALL over the place, now its as smooth as ever all the way along, in fact im going to nip down to the unit now to get it... back in 10

 

[sideways danny]

ALL cams need to be advanced if the VVT is still fitted. when not activated, the inlet is retarded to give a smooter idle. Non VVT cams are a different proposition
maybe trying activating the vvt on the dyno would have helped you rather than guessing

 

[mattatmtech]

We never underwwent any GUESSING procedure danny. Nick was unsure what cams he had fitted. unfortunately I do not like alterting cam timing on customers engines without proper knowledge of cam specifics and details...

Im starting to think whoeevr fitted the cams has the timing out....

 

[mattatmtech]

Feel free to poke holes in a perfectly smooth torque curve, note however power is still on the rise at the limiter....

 

[mattatmtech]

If whoever fitted the cams has fitted non VVT cams, does this remove the VVT control/oil system? On the ST170 engine the unit is still there. I don't profess to be a renault expert, but imo an engine is an engine and we have had success with every project we have ever tackled....

 

[Adey.]

defo switch on the vvt, did you not need it on the other clio you had? plus the car if it has cams, came to you running thus meaning no interface when on a stock map and stock vvt setup?

 

[mattatmtech]

Indeed, on the other car we saw good results without VVT, again however it was down on power when it arrived.

Good point on the stock running VVT etc.

As I said to nick (I actually said to him when he collected it as he was concerned about the engine and that he had spare, he asked how much I would charge to remap after he fitted the new engine and I said I would happily do it for free as I myself would be peeeeed off if the engine is at fault!)

When Nick brings the car down on tuesday, we'll give the VVT a kick, and see what happens, I'm hoping for 200+, albeit everything else is fine!

Matt

 

[mattatmtech]

Can anyone (with more direct clio mapping experience) explain the terrible torque curve from the engine as it arrived (graph above)

It may help both Nick and myself get his car performing as he wants!

 

[Jay Payne]

Whats that limiter set to?

 

[Adey.]

oh and the stock car revs to 7200rpm

 

[mattatmtech]

7,200 soft, 7,300 hard. Tyre deformation (backwards calibrated to extract RPM) has cuased it to appear to limit at around 7000

 

[mattatmtech]

lets look at the important line, the original OEM blue one...

 

[Adey.]

all clios seem to have that funny kink in the torque, will try and find all my clio printouts and put them up, got stock, remaped, exhaust with remap, jenveys, and jenveys with 428s

 

[sideways danny]

pulling to the limiter is the opposite characteristic of cam timing being wrong

 

[Jay Payne]

We got 170bhp out of ours with the vvt switched off when base mapping. Final result of 198

 

[Fred@BTM]

155 @ fly before you started?

 

[mattatmtech]

Yes , 155bhp @ fly.

VVT defintaley seems the factor here chaps, roll on tuesday

 

[Fred@BTM]

i'd want to know why its only 155 at the start before touching it really

what were the wheel figures anyway?

 

[sideways danny]

all clios seem to have that funny kink in the torque, will try and find all my clio printouts and put them up, got stock, remaped, exhaust with remap, jenveys, and jenveys with 428s

characteristic of the 4-1 (172) manifold. the 4-2-1 (182) manifold smooths it out almost totally

 

[mwn11]

Hey all , just picked up my car from a place called m tech automotive , they have fitted jenvey throttle bodies and there v4 ecu , the car has 428 cat cams , 182 manifold , de cat and janspeed exhaust , and few other bits and bobs

So shouldnt nicks be smooth?

 

[mattatmtech]

Indeed, we would usually ask questions, however, the previous clio had around 165bhp @fly, and the one that SiTech recently mapped on our V4 made 185bhp and arrived at around 165bhp so I naturally assume clio power figures to be over stated from the factory. Wheel figures are on the dyno, dynodynamics would probably throw SAE80DIN loss of about 22% for a FWD car...

 

[sideways danny]

So shouldnt nicks be smooth?

yeah, that before graph looks pretty terrible actually, very exagerated peaks and troughs

 

[mattatmtech]

If Renault let a car leave with such a bad torque curve I would be worried. usually we find that a car with 'bolt on' mods which is not mapped correctly can have odd torque charasteristics, hence the aftermarket management route.

 

[mattatmtech]

Danny, any ideas as to why, that was just a base power run on the rollers.

 

[PaulyA610]

Bottom line is after driving it home it was horrid, the performance was poor after you said it went very well on the road!! It stinks of fuel and has lost all the low down throttle response it used to have, even though it has got a bit more grunt higher up the rev range. As far as the wiring goes it is a joke my bird could of done a better job (i mean the loom wasn't even cable tied up and touching the fan). I have heard good things from the ford boys about this company and the chap matt was pleasent and talked like he knows his stuff. I hope they can sort out the car out as I have never seen nick as dissapointed as he was last night. The car couldnt even keep up with andybutlers STANDARD 172 cup last night!!

 

[PaulyA610]

Matt it deffo has the cat cams as they are one peice rather than two peice.

 

[sideways danny]

Danny, any ideas as to why, that was just a base power run on the rollers.

probably as it was unmapped for the cams. 428s do strange things in the mid range

 

[PaulyA610]

It was not mapped befor it was on standard management.

 

[mattatmtech]

Paul,

Just spoke to Nick

The performance to myself was good (although only tested in the wet) It smells fo fuel as there is NO BREATHER SYSTEM IN PLACE (as nick said he was fitting an aftermarket catch system)

On the wiring front bare in mind it is all in conduit and the extra 40cm is so when the battery is moved to the boot (thus removing the OEM ECU mounting) the ECU can be mounted inside the car....

The stock ECU connector is also left there as you should never completely remove it on such a CAN endorsed car in case of change of plans as to the dash etc. On the Citroen C1 for example, the system is so multiplxed if the ECU detects an over voltage condition it switches on the rear heated screen to suck some current!! crazy indeed!

In terms of sorting it out, now the VVT has become so apparently crucial (even on a cammed engine, usually Verniers are fitted and the engine is setup to maxmise the power band as per drivers/driving style) I think hooking this back in, and mapping again will see nick over the moon with the job

 

[mattatmtech]

Remember when judging perfomance to compare it to how it arrived, we certianly made an improvement. I have customers (mainly SEAT cup cars) that pay over £3,000 for just 15lb.ft, not £2100 for 40 lb.ft! Althoguh we are getting into the realms of dimishing returns by that point

Matt

 

[Adey.]

i know this might sound harsh, but if i was paying anyone to the job i wouldnt then expect them to come on here to find out why its wrong or to solve a problem, are you pros or are you some back yard place?

 

[mattatmtech]

We arnt looking to find out, all advice should be taken with a pinch of salt.... ;lots of keyboard warriors out there, although some do have some credible knowledge.

I have never professed to be a clio expert, our experience of Reanults usually revolves around the VQ motor that powers the 350Z, like the AWD 1300bhp@fly example we are currently building for a chap budgeting around 100k.

Have a look over our premises on the gallery section of our site (www.mtechautomotive.co.uk)... far from back yard....

Also, anyone in any profession, forums are a great source of information, as theres guarenteed to be someone somewhere with the exact same problem. I would be an idiot NOT to look around and ask for advice!


Matt

 

[172Ben]

Mine doesn't smell of fuel. The breather system is for oil, not petrol.

Mine also ran 158bhp standard, and then 204bhp with just bodies