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106 gti beat me :-(

just been to a cruise and we had a liitle drag strip. 106 gti standard trim except for exhaust. i am at full stage 1 spec(chip, zorst filter) am running 16s though, also, he beat me on gear changes, i got the better start( still poor by my standards i think) he was level at at the end of first gear and pulling away in second. absoloutely nothing in it but i thought i would have eaten him! i think i am changing too late, my chip allows me to redline at 7500rpm, and i do when racing!! should i be changing earlier?? is there any power at 7500rpm?? HELP!!??

Well I know my car really isnt in the same leage as your own but I have found that if you change about 1k to 500 before you hit the start of the redzone you wont notice any difference. Or at least I dont. On this road I drive home on after work I usually hit 60 at the same spot everytime. Whether I am redlining or not. My engine likes me more if I change earlier I know that. Like you said though maybe the power is fading off that high, so if you change earlier maybe you will be in more of an accelerating zone. If that makes any sense.

  mk2 172

theres gonna be more where that came from boys(hope ur all reading this thread:) . my VTS is waiting to catch a ferry from france at the minute, or at least it was on wednesday he he, cant wait to race some valvers and willys (not jons)

DTWD, the reason for your car doing that is because of 8v. 16v have very definite power bands, i just dont know where it runs out!! also, say my car produces 100bhp@ 7500rpm and 150bhp@6000rpm, is 100bhp more useful in first or 150bhp in second!!! so confusing
  mk2 172

power pand things do tend to be confusing, i cant understand why people say they change gear early to keep at peak rpm. it happens so fast you just rev the knacers off it in every gear and fly through the box making it move as fast as possible!
  mk2 172

thats the thing mate, youd need some timed run on the 1/4 to know what is best for you and your motor but then theres that many factors it would still be hard!

would like to know what all the other 16valvers are shifting at. another factor is if i hit redline in say first, i am at higher revs for second!! so many pros and cons for shifting early or going to redline


  Audi TT Stronic

I guess for the 172 the best time to change gear is when it tells you to which happens at about 7000rpm.

I floored the car and was like "ooh i got a pretty flashing green light on me dash" till i remembered it was the gearchange indicator but to be honest in the 172 you hit the limiter in 1st, 2nd and 3rd in the blink of an eye.

So to sum it up i guess the ideal time to change in the 172 would be 7000rpm, but i dont know if the same applies to other 16 valve cars.

_KDF you sure its saying "nows the best time to change" or is it saying "change you b*****d or I am gonna blow up in your face while simultaniosly spilling my preciouse oil all over this nice clean road...pig f**ker!" or at least something like that.



I agree with Craggys earlier point that revving the knackers off it is the way to go. Admit it, nobody apart from seasoned racers bother about what revs are what, etc, etc. I know we all should but we dont!!

Are those shift light things any good? Wouldnt it be worth investing in them, finding out the optimum shifts for your car/setup and then going with that? Takes the guess work out of it. Oh, and itll look cool on your dash.....................maybe?
  2005 Audi A3 3.2 Quattro

I have always thought that if the car was still pulling at the redline then why not change there.

I do however try change 200-300 rpm before the redline because when the limiter kicks in, you lose a lot of time.

I have also heard that you should change when youre hit peak power because after that youre losing power and its time to shift, but I have never really listened to that.

Id say just do tests with a mate where you both have a standing start and he changes @ the same rpm every time, and you try changing early and changing late and see what difference it makes

If you choose to race a 106 GTi/VTS in 1st and 2nd, then it will be very close. But if its in mid range, at higher speeds, overtaking etc, then a 16v will be quicker.

but he was standard!! i am stage 1, just been told by someone to change at just before 7000rpm. he said you can actually feel the car pulling less after thet, this is true, i have noticed it but i just thought staying in a higher gear ending up at higher revs in the next gear would make up for it. obviously not. Also, provoked a skyline GTR into giving it some today, was all over his ass until he put his foot down. They are SSSSSOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO quick, i NEED one in my life. NOW:D


  Audi TT Stronic

Quote: Originally posted by DTWD on 06 December 2002
_KDF you sure its saying "nows the best time to change" or is it saying "change you b*****d or I am gonna blow up in your face while simultaniosly spilling my preciouse oil all over this nice clean road...pig f**ker!" or at least something like that.;) Paul

Im saying thats when the car is telling me to change.. i like to keep going till the above happens :D

Only joking, but I thought that was the point of a change light, when it lights that is the best time to change. Hard to time your changes though.
  Clio 182, OctaviaVRS

106 GTis can be quick as standard, all cars vary out of the factory - my friend who is a car dealer had one on 50k miles, P Reg and it was so quick for what it was, much quicker than my Mums 99T Reg Pug 106 Gti, sometimes you just get a good un.

Same with Valvers - some of them are much quicker as standard then others!!

Have you had your car on the rollers?? I personally wouldnt be surprised if you had no more then 2bhp more with your stage 1 mods then you would have had as standard - these cars go ok standard, stage one doesnt really seem to make much difference unless you get a good cold air feed etc, ive never noticed a difference with air filter and exhaust - even a chip to be honest!

Cams, head work are the way to go to really make it quicker then a standard one!

Do a search on 106gti. I had an organised race with a modded stage 1 GTI.

Very interesting results. Ok the 106 beat me to 100 but i was pushing him down the dual carrageway all the way to 130. All on video as well!
  Clio 182, OctaviaVRS

My car has a Hill power induction kit, with proper cold air feed, superchip, piper fast road cam, ported polised and gas flowed head, full Scorpion exhaust with a de-cat.

I bet on the rollers its probably only got 150 bhp at the fly............. it just doesnt feel that quick - i dont know if its because im used to my 5 turbo, i cant tell if this is any quicker then my pretty much standard valver i had before..........

saying that i did keep up with a Cup after he cruised past me sticking his thumbs up at around 50mph, i nailed it and kept up with him - we both pulled over and he was well impressed - saying how good it looked etc.......... I laughed at him and pointed to his car reminding him hes got a brand new Clio cup sat there - what was he talking about!!!!!!

even if i have 2bhp more than standard, thts still 139bhp as opposed to the 120 of the 106. i know that bhp is not the only factor but it is a fairly big advantage, something went wrong anyway cos i think i should have left him. i was surprised when he was still with me in first, then just before i changed into second he crept ahead
  Clio 182, OctaviaVRS

106 GTIs are ever so slightly quicker then Valvers - in my opinion........ sorry!

120 bhp was for the early ones, then some were 130 bhp - cant remember when it changed etc! The 106 is quite a lot smaller, has smaller wheels as standard, and probably weighs quite a bit less - dont be surprised if one just beats you - and dont think theres anything wrong with your car, there wont ever be much in it, remember that your car may not have even had 137 bhp standard anyway?!? My first vavler had 135 bhp with Induction kit, and Exhaust + De cat - so probably was 130 standard, which means that your car might have the same power as the 106, but he has less weight, and smaller wheels etc!!?!?
  TT 225

It was a bloody close race tho Clean 16v, and Hi! Was nice to meet you :)

Its all down to power to weigh really. Remember, the GTi can do 0-60 in early 7s! Just like yours.. except its a hell of a lot lighter.

Least you kicked that Peugeot 306 butt, hehehe
  CTR EK9 turbo

Maybe he had less fuel in his tank? or maybe he did much better full throttle gear changes?

Do an oil change: on gran turismo 2 you lose about 30 bhp with dirty oil!

Well if you get your car rolling roaded (if its modded) you can find out where peak power is, then youll find out the the best RPM to change.

There are big holes in my knowledge, but AFAIK Stage 1 wont really do much on a Clio 16v in terms of outright accleration.

Because of the small, hot, engine bay induction kits do little except add a really meaty noise (probably the best on a production hatch); similarly with the exhaust I suspect. The chip should iron out flat spots and increase the revs you can get to - which, since the maximum output on a standard engine is c.7000rpm, will usually only mean extra power if the engine is modified to develop more power above or at the standard rev limit of c.7300rpm.

So, Stage 1 will make the car more driveable and make it sound fantastic - but shouldnt see a Clio 16v make much clear extra power. I guess its a preparation for Stage 2, where the benefits of breathing and extra revs really will combine with the additional mods to increase power/torque/accleration.

The 106 GTi is a very quick car for reasons that are not always easily understood - not least by me! The Clio 16v barely weighs any more - maybe 50kg at most - and has about 140bhp per ton. Meanwhile, the 106/VTS have c.125bhp per ton and less torque. But they deliver the power in such as way that they really impress/embarass up against other hot hatches. You could start to close the weight gap by leaving the spare wheel at home.

Having just changed from 16" wheels myself (back to Phase 2 15s with 195/50/15), I am also of the opinion that the initial acceleration is a bit better on the smaller wheels - provided I dont get wheelspin.;)


Unfortunatley my camcorder only records on tape not digital. Ill bring it to the next meet!
  clio 20v

im not surprised pug 106s are quik

nuthin in it between me an my mates till over 60 mph wen i pull slight lead

his made 110 bhp @ wheels last week with de-cat, k+n and milltek exhaust

mine did 117 before the exhaust an de-cat

get it on the rollers mate if ur cars not doin what it shud then theyll tell ya but im not surprised you didnt beat the pug


just had my oil and filter changed(needed doing) obviously no noticeable improvements(i bloody wish it was that easy). any way 2moro i am going back to standar air box and performance filter while i atempt to design a cold air box for my induction kit. oh and im gonna leave my spare and jack at home. just hope i dont get a puncture!! kelly, hi, will the cruise be there again this week? and adi, do you not fancy coming down?

What a lot of people dont realise about the 106GTi/VTS is they have quite wild cams.

From 1000-4500rpm they are quite flat and a VTR/Zetec-S/106Xsi will keep up. When they hit 4500-7000 they "come on cam," develop 120BHP and peak torque of 107ft/lbs.

This gives quite a rush that tends to suprise quite a few other cars when racing neck and neck.

So they need to have their tits revved off to get into that "sweet spot" and really fly.

i can completely believe that. i was ahead until i was coming into power band(4500rpm+) when the little f**ker pulled along side me. also, someone mentioned that vts/106 has lower power and torque but still keeps up with the valver. would be interested to see what there gear ratios are cos if there only hitting 22mph in first 50mph in second etc. i have no doubt that they would keep up. its like me running 13" wheels, my top speed will be dramaticaly reduced but i would accelerate a hell of a lot quicker. what sort of speeds do you saxos hit at the end of each gear. for the 16v clio it is;





5th-not hit it yet!! been told 140ish
  mk2 172

stumped again there mate cos the 106 and vts have taller gears than a valver, as ben h has said they just seem to be physics defyingly fast for some reason

Eric: if you think the VTS/106 come on cam late, try a Clio 16v - it is the classic 16v power delivery engined car!

Clean 16v: mate, its more like 40mph in 1st with a 16v - go find out! Top speed is really about 130mph, although the speedo will be displaying more than that.

VTS/106 GTi and the Clio 16v are obviously a good match - from a standing start anyway.

Me flat mate has a VTS and i used to have a 19 16V and there wasnt a big differance between the 2 he was slightly quicker. But his car red lined in fifth at 130 where as the 19 would get 130 but no where near red lining. So from this to me it looks like the VTS is geared to accelerate quicker? Unless the 19 and clio have differant gear boxes but i dont think so?
  Clio Williams 1, 182,197

if your running an induction kit !! then ditch it !!

My own opinion of most induction kits is that they cost you acceleration. Its been tried and tested people who have had I/D KITS have taken them off and put the standard airbox back on. Have noticed a quicker acceleration.

As I say just my own opinion.