172 Cup Handling

[donnylad]

Hi Guys

i have done a search but cant find much of a master guide for the information I am after.

I have always loved driving cars quick etc but I have never really knows how to set a car up. I have never done track driving so it hasnt been much of an issue. My mods over the years have always been for looks or power.

now I have a 172 cup, the car is my daily at the moment, but from the middle of next year it will just be a sprint car and non road legal.

Its runnign a bit more power and I have stripped some weight out. it will eventually go full strpped including dash etc and get a heated screen with no heaters or blowers, but I will look at that later.

The point of this thread is how to make it handle better.

for now it is on PS3's, I will go to a better tyre next year before going for full slicks once it is towed to events.

It is for sprinting, not track days as such. It will probably do 4-6 laps in a whole day, with very little brakeing so I am not to worried on the brakes at the moment.

Sorry for my waffle, the information I require is what mods do I need to do to effect handling and why do they help?

I have listed a few that I know of but any help would be appreciated.

Front strut brace - stiffens the front stopping lift?
Rear strut brace - was told pointless on a 172 cup?
coilovers - literally make the ride harder so less travel on the suspension?
Bushes - I do have a diagram of evewry bush on the car, some things have been done, some havn't
Anti toll bars - do you get front and rear or just rear? how do they help?

Any help appreciated with this. The car will be an on going project over the next few years but I want to be as close to competitive as possible from the start.

 

[donnylad]

Some pics of my current set up.

I can afford to go and buy everything at once, but I am giving myself a small budget of a few grand per year. Ideally spread out etc.

 

[Clio_fool]

If you're planning on competing in it checking the rules for the class you plan to run in would be the first thing to do. You don't want to waste money on mods that aren't allowed.

 

[donnylad]

I can do pretty much anything including moving suspension pick up points etc.

 

[adamlstr]

3,000,000% these, especially if you're sprinting - https://www.vibra-technics.co.uk/renault/clio_2_172_182

 

[donnylad]

Are they better then the square yellow type ones? I think the one I have now is powerflow or something.

Come on people! lay it on I need a shopping list!

 

[adamlstr]

Are they better then the square yellow type ones? I think the one I have now is powerflow or something.

Come on people! lay it on I need a shopping list!

That’ll be a power flex insert into the standard engine mount, ergo crap. The standard mounts either side are chocolate, the sooner they’re binned the better!

Do it right first time and get the vibratecnics, worth every single penny and more!

 

[Greeny.]

Fitted Kangoo mounts to mine, more than enough for a track car imo, can't comment on sprinting mind you.

 

[bloke]

coilovers - literally make the ride harder so less travel on the suspension?

That's kind of like saying all tyres do is hold air or all engines do is go Brum Brum.

If you drive the same car with £250 coilovers on and then £2,000 coilovers on it will be leagues apart.

 

[donnylad]

That's kind of like saying all tyres do is hold air or all engines do is go Brum Brum.

If you drive the same car with £250 coilovers on and then £2,000 coilovers on it will be leagues apart.

hence me asking and saying I don't really know the difference. would a £400 set be as good as a £700 set? logic says no, but it doesnt always work like that.

I am guessing the best thing to do would be to look through everyone's race car builds, and see what they run. There must be companies out there then specialise in this sort of stuff and can put together a full package

 

[Greeny.]

I am guessing the best thing to do would be to look through everyone's race car builds, and see what they run. There must be companies out there then specialise in this sort of stuff and can put together a full package

Of course there is but as these sorts of companies will generally specialise in motorsport so it won't be a cheap option. Mark Fish Motorsport for instance are brilliant but you have to pay a premium for the service, but if you're willing to do so, go for it!

Re Coilovers, BC Coilovers have a good reputation, I have a set myself as for the money you can't do wrong imo, I can't justify spending any more than £700-800 on a set for what I use the car for. @Kev@KAM has a good selection of coilovers, have a ganders on their site to get an idea:

https://www.kamracing.co.uk/car-tun..._category_sub=4326&product_car_model_new=4414

 

[bozothenutter]

Have a chat with Nick @pure-motorsport pure.....they used to hillclimb a very serious Ph1....

 

[donnylad]

I did see some for sale for £500, but unsure if they would be good for what i am after and if they can be set up correctly etc.

 

[bloke]

For the price bcs are cracking value. Better than bilsteins and personally I'd say better than gaz gold.

 

[Kev@KAM]

I could sell you full electronically controlled coilovers if the budget and rules allow lol
But being realistic on how much time you will spend in the car I'd say BC will get you a good handling car. Probably 10kg front spring for a dedicated sprint car.
I would run a 19mm Pure Motorsport Rear ARB to tune the rear to the course, get a good geometry setup and off you go.

 

[Vaughan]

I have never done track driving...

IMHO get what you've got fixed up (brake fluid, pads, decent tyres) then get some track tuition.

 

[Robbie Corbett]

For the price bcs are cracking value. Better than bilsteins and personally I'd say better than gaz gold.

I always chuckle when switching between cars and forums, at the moment there is a similar thread on M3cutters where the general consensus is the exact opposite in that BC coilovers are utter rubbish and that the bilsteins (specifically PSS10's) are the gods dangles - do KW make kits for these cars? They also have a good rep in the M3 world.

@donnylad - I am doing something a little similar at the moment however I'm hoping to keep the car as a daily/track mix (I am sure this won't work long term!) and I've decided to keep the car pretty standard (bar springs and cup dampers) and to get everything in good order first, bushes, tyres etc - do a few track days and see what I feel needs work and money next. I also think its worth having subframe and rear beam out and cleaning the car up to ensure future panic repairs don't get halted by snapped and/or seized bolts.

Its easy to get carried away with a shopping list but ime thats an unnecessarily expensive way to go about things.

 

[Clio_fool]

Check all the bushes too. Wishbones, arb, steering rack, top mounts. Swapping those for poly ones will make a difference, especially if they are tired. If you go for BC's they do solid top mounts, you should probably get those.

 

[Kev@KAM]

I always chuckle when switching between cars and forums, at the moment there is a similar thread on M3cutters where the general consensus is the exact opposite in that BC coilovers are utter rubbish and that the bilsteins (specifically PSS10's) are the gods dangles - do KW make kits for these cars? They also have a good rep in the M3 world.


When you can buy Bilstein Clubsport, Nitron and Tractive then yes BC dont look massively great but the average M3 owner tends to spend a lot more money than the price of a basic BC kit. KW make the V1 coilovers but thats not really a high end kit. What it does have is much better rust protection out the box.

 

[Robbie Corbett]

Yes the KW's do seem to have pretty decent rust protection. KW also make other branded kits such as AP, which are suspected to be V1's with lesser rust protection and hence cheaper, I have these on an old 328i and they have alright for fast road use so far. My comment was more tongue in cheek and regarding totally different views for different cars/forums/communities. I bet I could go to a Vauxhall/Ford/Nissan forum and again get a totally different opinion regarding what the best suspension kit for a particular car will be.

However I will say this - the PSS10 kit is fantastic and even the top end stuff for the clio is more than half the cost vs the M3 making (for me at least) the clio a really fun car to improve compared with said M3.

 

[donnylad]

checkout that roll!

 

[Kev@KAM]

Yes the KW's do seem to have pretty decent rust protection. KW also make other branded kits such as AP, which are suspected to be V1's with lesser rust protection and hence cheaper, I have these on an old 328i and they have alright for fast road use so far. My comment was more tongue in cheek and regarding totally different views for different cars/forums/communities. I bet I could go to a Vauxhall/Ford/Nissan forum and again get a totally different opinion regarding what the best suspension kit for a particular car will be.

However I will say this - the PSS10 kit is fantastic and even the top end stuff for the clio is more than half the cost vs the M3 making (for me at least) the clio a really fun car to improve compared with said M3.

I think its like this. KW bought Weitec and AP brands and then gradually reordered things.
Weitec became ST (certainly all the old part numbers moved across). The STX range basically is the old KW V1 steel bodied coilover though there may be a few differences in valving.
KW then only make alloy casings for themselves to stay higher end.
AP are the cheaper of their brands and as far as we know, may benefit from mass production for certain parts, but it is the more budget option component wise.

 

[Sonic Boom]

checkout that roll!

Mine at the same corner:

Rich

 

[New2RS]

Wow. The difference is like night and day. I’m guessing that’s cup dampers v’s coilovers.
Comparing wheel lock though, it LOOKS like the ph1 is experiencing world class under steer?
Probably wrong though.

 

[Sonic Boom]

Here's the in car footage from the run this photo was taken from no real understeer issues, I enter the corner in question at the 44 second mark.



Rich

 

[massiveCoRbyn]

I always chuckle when switching between cars and forums, at the moment there is a similar thread on M3cutters where the general consensus is the exact opposite in that BC coilovers are utter rubbish and that the bilsteins (specifically PSS10's) are the gods dangles - do KW make kits for these cars? They also have a good rep in the M3 world.

@donnylad - I am doing something a little similar at the moment however I'm hoping to keep the car as a daily/track mix (I am sure this won't work long term!) and I've decided to keep the car pretty standard (bar springs and cup dampers) and to get everything in good order first, bushes, tyres etc - do a few track days and see what I feel needs work and money next. I also think its worth having subframe and rear beam out and cleaning the car up to ensure future panic repairs don't get halted by snapped and/or seized bolts.

Its easy to get carried away with a shopping list but ime thats an unnecessarily expensive way to go about things.

Definitely agree with this. Opinion on different brands and products varies wildly depending on who you speak to.

A lot of people on here slate Gaz but, when chatting to Mark Fish, he said they are ok. It can be difficult to make sense of it all.

 

[bozothenutter]

Mine at the same corner:

View attachment 1370541

Rich

get in Touch with @NorthloopCup , you cn have even less roll when you bring the geometry(wishbone angles) back to original after lowering it.

 

[Sonic Boom]

get in Touch with @NorthloopCup , you cn have even less roll when you bring the geometry(wishbone angles) back to original after lowering it.

I already have a set of Marks hubs fitted.

Rich

 

[donnylad]

Here's the in car footage from the run this photo was taken from no real understeer issues, I enter the corner in question at the 44 second mark.



Rich

Very tidy run, I have only done 1 practice day and 2 members afternoons so far. Will be doing my first chempionship next year.

What sort of speeds do you normally get crossing the line? I managed a couple of 85-88 mph on the last run. Not sure how that compares to other similar cars though.

 

[Sonic Boom]

Cheers mate, what Championship are you going to do?
86mph over the line is my best.

Rich

 

[donnylad]

Mine was only done on a GPS phone app so could in reality be lower, speedo was reading over 90 though.

I will be doing the shenstone and district car club championship, I am prepping the car now ready to start in Jan.

Really looking forward to it! it has been a lot more expense then I first thought when I got the idea!

 

[Sonic Boom]

I take it you're going to run in Mod Prod?
Any reason why you don't want to run in Road Going?
Rich

 

[donnylad]

road going =class 1B?

Mod prod = 3B?

The only reason I didnt want to go for 1A is there are no other cars their in the championship, same as last year. I feel it is pointless being the only one in a class, so would rather move up a class and have some competition, even if I do get smashed haha!

With the times from 3B I feel I ould be very confident, but I know Andy Harding is having a race engine built that should hit 240bhp and he weighs in at 800KG running full slicks!

 

[Sonic Boom]

I'm used to Nat A rounds so upto 2000cc Road Going to me is A1 and 1400cc-2000cc Mod Prod is C2 lol
But don't confuse Standard Production with Road Production thou, I've always though Road Production was well supported in the HSA Nat B style Championships?

Mod Prod is a serious class thou it's not just a case of stripping a car out, like you've mentioned earlier you can move pick up points which means you can convert to Push Rod Suspension of you like (See Colin Satchels 205) and when it comes to stripping out you don't need to run any interior bar a seat and a steering wheel.
You can also run a sequential gearbox and you don't even need to use the original head fitted to engine (think Mi16's and Mk2 Escort;s fitted with Cossie head's)
And of course the slicks a set of A15/A92 Avons will cost you in the region of a grand!
You'll also need to run a HANS device, have in date belts and a cage to MSA spec.

Not that I'm trying to put you off but Mod Prod is brutal class and it it can be quite disheartening to come dead last all the time in an uncompitive car.
A Clio in Road Going can mix it up top with very little mods thou.

RIch

 

[donnylad]

I totally understand what you are saying, I did think to sell the car and get a standard one (mine is cammed so couldnt go standard production). The price to put it back to standard would be silly but I love the car.

I was going to go into Road going production, but it has had 0 entries all year, and had 4 S2000's enter into 1 race last year then 0 entries again all year.

So I decided to try my luck in 3B

MODIFIED PRODUCTION CARS: Section S12 Modified Production Cars (excluding Kit , Replica and space framed, and also Non Ferrous chassis construction Cars). 3. 3a <1400cc 3b 1401 to 2000cc 3c 2001 and over

The cars in 3B at the min dont seem to be too fast, I am to drop my car to around 900KG if possible, and im running 195bhp, so its not greatly powered but there seems to be a lot less powered cars in thew same class ( I know sprinting is more about handling though).

It will be my first time ever competing, so although no one likes to come last, I feel for the first year - 2 just being involved will be awesome fun and teach me a lot of the regs and rules.

If i am still interested after 2 years i plan to go to a single seater (funds providing).

I was going to go into road going, but I would be first! and last! every week lol

 

[donnylad]

Oh this is the championship I will be doing as my first one.

https://www.curborough.co.uk/curborough-championship/