172 Cup Won't Crank Over

[Mbeau]

At my wits end with my Clio 172 Cup track car. Got in to move it last week and would not start. All lights on dash, soon as I go to start nothing. As I turn to start the car the central clock goes out. Never had any issues like this before. I have read various threads, but I am a bit lost.

I have replaced the main gearbox to chassis earth strap with one from halfords and cleaned all the others. Battery is fully charged. I have checked there is 12v to the starter. I have checked the little white wire to the starter solenoid. I have cleaned the relays and fuse box area.

On turning the key to start I am getting 12v to the ignition white wire. I am not getting 12v to the white wire from the relay to the starter. I have tried swapping the two relays round. I have run a small wire from the positive side of the battery to the small white wire on the back of the relay which runs down to the starter and it spins over.

I have given up with it tonight. I thought I had sussed it yesterday as it was starting again and did this morning. I swapped my HT leads over, put it all back together and would not start again.

Any advice greatly appreciated.

 

[dann2707]

The central clock going out is suspect, thts telling me that the battery isn't good enough and it's being sapped of all power. You say its fully charged but that can be deceiving and can still be faulty.

I would try a new battery

 

[Ol’ Tarby]

I agree. Fully charged means nothing if it's duff

 

[perazzi]

The central clock going out is suspect, thts telling me that the battery isn't good enough and it's being sapped of all power. You say its fully charged but that can be deceiving and can still be faulty.

I would try a new battery

Or at least a jump.

 

[Mbeau]

Have already tried a second battery and my jump pack to give it a boost. Normally the dash lights go if battery is flat. It did start fine when it was working.

I should still see a increase in voltage to the solenoid though even if the battery was low. It's not the battery.

Thank you for the replies though.

 

[robzracing]

When you say the starter motor spins, is it actually turning the engine over or just spinning without engaging?
It sounds like the starter might be on the way out.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Mbeau]

When you say the starter motor spins, is it actually turning the engine over or just spinning without engaging?
It sounds like the starter might be on the way out.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Sorry, if I put a 12v feed to the small white wire on the relay that goes to the starter solenoid it will turn over engine over no problem. The starter motor was new not that long ago.

I get no 12v feed from the relay to the starter solenoid when attempting to start.

 

[robzracing]

Sorry, if I put a 12v feed to the small white wire on the relay that goes to the starter solenoid it will turn over engine over no problem. The starter motor was new not that long ago.

I get no 12v feed from the relay to the starter solenoid when attempting to start.

Ah, I see. Have you tested the relay? Or are you thinking it's immobiliser/electrical fault elsewhere?

 

[Mbeau]

Ah, I see. Have you tested the relay? Or are you thinking it's immobiliser/electrical fault elsewhere?

Have swapped the two relays round and both appear to be working. When testing I can feel them switching too.

It's odd I get 12v on the ignition side when I try to start the car, but I don't then get 12v on the solenoid side.

I don't think it is the immobilizer as the light is going off as it should.

I have not experienced any other electrical problems prior to this!

 

[thecrim22]

have you got a battery 12v feed to the relay?

 

[Mbeau]

have you got a battery 12v feed to the relay?

Have been playing around a bit more today! Had a call from another member too, which was really helpful.

This is the wiring underneath the starter relay. With the ignition on I get 12v at the two yellow coloured wires. With the key then turned to start I get 12v at the ignition side of the relay, but nothing at the starter motor side. If I bridge the two white wires and turn ignition to start the car will start and run with no issues.

I have tried swapping the two relays around, but this makes no difference. One of the two relays is brown and when swapped brings a light on the dash. I can't help but think the relay is the problem as it's just a switch. I can't understand how I get 12v on the ignition side and then nothing on the starter side. What I am doing by bridging the connection is what the relay should do? I will get a couple of new relays just to make sure that is not the problem.

Otherwise I am a bit lost!!

 

[EVO 4LEX]

Have you checked for good continuity on the ground side of the coil as I’m assuming when measuring your 12v you are using the main ground with your multi meter? Are the relays pulling in?

 

[Mbeau]

Have you checked for good continuity on the ground side of the coil as I’m assuming when measuring your 12v you are using the main ground with your multi meter? Are the relays pulling in?

Thanks for the reply. I am using the ground from the battery. What is the ground side of the coil? Not too sure what you mean by the relays pulling in?

This issue is definitely testing my limited electrical knowledge, but always happy to learn!!!

 

[EVO 4LEX]

Looking at your picture the two white wire are your switch so one side will always have 12v and when the relay is switched on that power then passes to the second white wire. The coil for the relay is powered by ignition and you said you get 12v on the yellow wire when you turn it on? That means that the brown wire must be the ground for the coil. Check that the brown wire has continuity to earth using your meter on ohms. Hope that makes sense

the fact that when you bridge the two white wires it starts suggests that it is as you say either the relay or a problem with power or ground to the relay.

 

[thecrim22]

for your feeds on that relay 1 white should be constant 12v the other white goes to starter, 1 yellow will be the 12v supply from the ignition switch and the other yellow should be ground/negative if you are getting 12v to both of the yellows i would say that there is a broken earth.

take the relay out and find out which of the yellow wires is from the ignition switch when you try and start it then run a temporary earth wire from the battery to the other yellow wire, stick the relay back in and see if that works

 

[Mbeau]

I am fairly sure the bigger of the two yellow wires is ignition live and the smaller brown wire is the earth. I will double check with the meter though.

If that is the issue do I then need to trace back in the loom where the relay takes its earth from? I am fairly sure the smaller brown wire goes into the main loom plug and that wiring then goes into the interior, probably the UCH? @thecrim22

 

[thecrim22]

either trace the wire back and find the issue with it (it may be in the plug a dirty or corroded pin) or just run a new wire to earth

 

[Mbeau]

Just been out to check the wiring again. With the ignition on I get 12v on both the yellow wire and the smaller brown wire.

With the relay removed I get 12v on the yellow wire and nothing on the smaller brown wire. Am I right to assume this is the ignition live? I have run out of time to do anything further today. I will run a separate earth to the relay tomorrow and see if it will then turn over. If so I will follow the problem wire back inside the car and see where it goes!! This is certainly testing my patience. Thanks for all the help and advice so far, really appreciated.

 

[thecrim22]

when you say you get 12v on the yellow wire is this with the key turned to the start position?

 

[Mbeau]

I get 12v on both the yellow and brown wires with the ignition on. With the key in the start position I get 12v on the ignition side of the white wire, but nothing on the starter side. The brown and yellow wires have 12v @thecrim22

 

[thecrim22]

try putting an earth to the brown wire and see if it starts

 

[Mbeau]

Bit of an update! After reading the above advice from @thecrim22, speaking with another forum member on the phone and my Renault Specialist in Orpington I have worked out the issue. Thanks very my to everyone that has offered advice.

Traced the small earth wire back from the starter relay to main engine plus and then to the UCH. This wire was all good.

I then hooked up a separate earth from the relay to the negative terminal on the battery. Car fired up straight away.

In my spares I had a 182 ECU and UCH. As a test I fitted these to see if the car would turn over and it did straight away.

I have left this 182 ECU and UCH on for the moment and will try and get a 172 Cup one. I believe that I may be able to sort out the traction control light that is now on using Clip along with any other settings that need changing and retain the 182 ECU/UCH.

I have had a problem with it getting wet in the car and leading to it being a bit damp inside at times. This may be the reason for failure of the UCH. I have today removed the wiper motor and washer bottle as from looking up inside the was a small hole beneath that was letting water in. With carpet and sound proofing in it would be very hard to see. It would appear to be a hole that was there from factory. I have now fitted a rubber grommet so this should stop any water now getting in. A picture of the hole should it help anyone with water ingress.

 

[JamesBryan]

Is that not one of the drain holes?

 

[thecrim22]

good that you got it sorted👍👍

 

[Mbeau]

Is that not one of the drain holes?

Not unless it drains into the car 😂

Definitely not a drain hole, that is further forward. Picture does not show it very well. I only discovered it by putting a hose on the front windscreen and noticed a fair amount of water going into the passenger footwell. I put my head up underneath where the UCH is and could just see it up high in the corner.

That big hole is a drain hole. It's the smaller one above it in the corner.

 

[JamesBryan]

Not unless it drains into the car 😂

Definitely not a drain hole, that is further forward. Picture does not show it very well. I only discovered it by putting a hose on the front windscreen and noticed a fair amount of water going into the passenger footwell. I put my head up underneath where the UCH is and could just see it up high in the corner.

Ahh not that then.

 

[Martin.]

That's the rear window wash pipe isn't it?

Recently blocked said hole up on mine with a grommet and sealer.

 

[Mbeau]

That's the rear window wash pipe isn't it?

Recently blocked said hole up on mine with a grommet and sealer.

Not too sure, but it let's a fair bit of water in!!

 

[Martin.]

Yeah mine would literally stream in. Often had puddles on the floor when it was stripped out! Harder to spot that with carpets though!