172cup vs 200cup

[MrBlonde]

Looking in eBay, damn they are cheap now!

Yeah mate ive been looking to,so cheap.I was thinking of getting one for the girlfriend

 

[scalino65]

This is a lovely utopian theory. Yes, when you're coming up on Paddock Hill bend, you'll be all set to feather and modulate your pedals just so, and chip away at that lap time.

But in the 99% of your driving, when you're just thinking about what to get in for dinner, you're just ambling along from A to B.. Are you going to get specific on your brake pedal when that cyclist pulls out on you out of nowhere (without looking, and probably with no lights, bellends).

So whilst the ambulance is mopping up Little Jimmy's giblets from your grille and the floor, are you still going to be singing the praises of your super-cool track-focused braking? No, no, you're going to be going in front of a judge who, most likely, isn't going to share your opinion.

Yes, this is an extreme exaggeration of the point, and in many cases if you lock-up in a Clio you'll have to have tried pretty hard to do so. Hell, I can't think of more than a few times I triggered ABS in my 172 in the 5 years I had it, and most of those would have been in snow or similar. But the point remains that these things exist to stop you wiping out not just your front bumper and rad, but people just going about their day around you.

And yes, I fully expect the CS bigman wave to come back telling me how they are better than Bottas

I suppose thats why I said "If you are used to it and can overcome the natural reaction to mash the brake pedal ..etc". I meant it in the sense that stopping in a shorter time without abs is achievable, not that one should disconnect an abs system, if your car is so equipped, in order to stop faster.
Apologies if that wasnt clear.

 

[MrBlonde]

Also helps if you have decent tyres.

 

[Goodj]

I suppose thats why I said "If you are used to it and can overcome the natural reaction to mash the brake pedal ..etc". I meant it in the sense that stopping in a shorter time without abs is achievable, not that one should disconnect an abs system, if your car is so equipped, in order to stop faster.
Apologies if that wasnt clear.

No apology needed fella.

This is it, people CAN, sometimes, do a better job than ABS.
Just that in most instances, they can't. It's just the same willy-waving and "my sik modz" attitude that leaves cars shiny-side down in ditches every day.

 

[cat171]

My point was that they say scary like they drive round all day in a car with the ABS permanently kicking in (that's genuinely how it appears) Then they start crying that the cup doesn't have it and they might die.
Why do people buy them knowing it hasn't got it ? If they are that bad, why not sell up ?
The people who say it make no sense at all.

 

[scalino65]

No apology needed fella.

This is it, people CAN, sometimes, do a better job than ABS.
Just that in most instances, they can't. It's just the same willy-waving and "my sik modz" attitude that leaves cars shiny-side down in ditches every day.

Agree totally and that is what I meant to say.?

 

[White16valver]

One of the main issues with ABS is that 'normal people' (i.e. your mum / old Doris round the corner / 18 year olds driving £500/month lease 'german whips' because 'lifestyle') who are not into cars or driving properly have no idea how ABS works, don't expect it when it does kick in, and then either fail to use the ABS to steer round what they're trying to avoid or lift off the brake pedal because they are scared something is breaking/broken.

Well, that is if they get ABS to even kick in... Most of the above people have no idea just how hard they can actually brake, which is why (from the few 'newer' cars I've driven) many (most?) cars nowadays seem to have that extremely irritating 'auto-braking' thing, where the braking effort is increased by the ECU while you leave your foot in the same position - I presume because Doris etc. is incapable of pressing the pedal with enough force.

ABS or no ABS, people crash into things because they have no idea what to do in an 'emergency' (the vast majority of which could/should be avoided with proper attention and anticipation), have no appreciation of grip levels and car control (and therefore what their car does and can actually do), and have no interest in actually developing and improving what is an important skill - they passed their driving test X years ago and don't speed, so that means they are safe drivers, doesn't it?? And the car has collision avoidance / automatic cruise control / lanekeeping assist / ABS / EBC / ESP / ABCXYZ so they don't really need to pay attention, do they??

Any car can be driven safely or dangerously, regardless of what kit it has or hasn't got on it - the failure of most people to appreciate and understand this, and adapt their driving to suit the car/conditions/road environment, means they will continue to be surprised when they spear off into the undergrowth or destroy a(nother) car...


[/old man rant]

[/shaking fist at cloud]

 

[MrBlonde]

So what about a 200 over an R26?.These are the two RS models i would go for next.

 

[imprezaworks]

The r26 are imo harder to find. But they will hold their value better.

The R would be the faster car but i think the 200 looks way nicer. Personally id try which ever popped up first.

 

[Goodj]

R27's in LY with all the carbon tupperware ?

 

[Knuckles]

How much difference are they on MPG to the 172Cup?.

My 4.2l s4 costs £10 more to fuel per week than the 197 and will use the same fuel on a long run.

Soooo, they’re pretty bad

I’d suggest the 200 though. I’ve not properly driven a 1*2 but the brakes and cornering composure of the mk3s when on the boil is incredible.

 

[Goodj]

My 4.2l s4 costs £10 more to fuel per week than the 197 and will use the same fuel on a long run.

Soooo, they’re pretty bad

And when a C6 Corvette does better MPG's than an S4, it starts to make an LS-powered freedom-machine better value than a 4-banger french hatch ?

 

[scalino65]

One of the main issues with ABS is that 'normal people' (i.e. your mum / old Doris round the corner / 18 year olds driving £500/month lease 'german whips' because 'lifestyle') who are not into cars or driving properly have no idea how ABS works, don't expect it when it does kick in, and then either fail to use the ABS to steer round what they're trying to avoid or lift off the brake pedal because they are scared something is breaking/broken.

Well, that is if they get ABS to even kick in... Most of the above people have no idea just how hard they can actually brake, which is why (from the few 'newer' cars I've driven) many (most?) cars nowadays seem to have that extremely irritating 'auto-braking' thing, where the braking effort is increased by the ECU while you leave your foot in the same position - I presume because Doris etc. is incapable of pressing the pedal with enough force.

ABS or no ABS, people crash into things because they have no idea what to do in an 'emergency' (the vast majority of which could/should be avoided with proper attention and anticipation), have no appreciation of grip levels and car control (and therefore what their car does and can actually do), and have no interest in actually developing and improving what is an important skill - they passed their driving test X years ago and don't speed, so that means they are safe drivers, doesn't it?? And the car has collision avoidance / automatic cruise control / lanekeeping assist / ABS / EBC / ESP / ABCXYZ so they don't really need to pay attention, do they??

Any car can be driven safely or dangerously, regardless of what kit it has or hasn't got on it - the failure of most people to appreciate and understand this, and adapt their driving to suit the car/conditions/road environment, means they will continue to be surprised when they spear off into the undergrowth or destroy a(nother) car...


[/old man rant]

[/shaking fist at cloud]

Yes!!! As a fellow old man/fist shaker I recognise the truth when I trip over it and then promptly forget where I put it. I always viewed driving as a skill that I wanted to improve to the extent I could. I've been on nearly 20 of Andy Walsh's car limits days over the years and loads of trackdays (when i was younger, had time, could afford it and had better bladder control). My thoughts were always that I wanted to practice but in a safe environment. Thats where I learnt about manual brake modulation over abs for instance. But, having the presence of mind to apply what youve learnt, in the split second its required, is what matters and so this preachy old fart reckons the real skill is to minimise the likelihood of it going wrong on the road by not driving like a plonker in the first place. What's that nurse? Time for my medication and a snooze? lovely...

 

[MrBlonde]

Haha i know,my brother in law has a C5 i think it is and he said how cheap the tax,insurance and petrol is considering what it is.Cheaper to run than his Q7 i think,madness

 

[MonkeyKnifeFight]

Ive owned both. I had a Storm grey 200 Cup with Recaros and speedlines and i currently drive a 172 Cup.

The 200 felt like a more special car to drive, the quick rack was great! brakes, incredible, handling was in a different league compared to the 172. You would have to be driving on meth to find the limits of grip on the road. Downsides of the 200 are the MPG which was almost always in the 20's, could get in the 30's on the motorway. The suspension was crazy firm at normal driving speed (awesome at full tilt) lastly it just felt like it could handle another 100hp.

My 172 Cup feels quicker to 60 im guessing it being 200kg lighter helps. Much easier to find the limits of grip which makes it feel more fun. MPG for the 172 is around 40. I run 15inch wheels so tyres are cheap. I cant think of a better car for the money i'd much rather own a 172 Cup over a 200 Cup.

 

[Kieranm96]

hmm..now started to wonder about a twingo 133...maybe that makes even more sense as a bonkers car for in town..

I’ve went from a 133 to eventually a 197 and would not go back, 133 did not have enough for me in regards to power after a corner, and the handling different between the two was marginal at best, 197/200 is a much nicer car to be inside as a 133 feels almost budget spec compared to. 197/200


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Ocsltd]

Ive owned both. I had a Storm grey 200 Cup with Recaros and speedlines and i currently drive a 172 Cup.

The 200 felt like a more special car to drive, the quick rack was great! brakes, incredible, handling was in a different league compared to the 172. You would have to be driving on meth to find the limits of grip on the road. Downsides of the 200 are the MPG which was almost always in the 20's, could get in the 30's on the motorway. The suspension was crazy firm at normal driving speed (awesome at full tilt) lastly it just felt like it could handle another 100hp.

My 172 Cup feels quicker to 60 im guessing it being 200kg lighter helps. Much easier to find the limits of grip which makes it feel more fun. MPG for the 172 is around 40. I run 15inch wheels so tyres are cheap. I cant think of a better car for the money i'd much rather own a 172 Cup over a 200 Cup.

Having owned both (at the same time), I completely agree with this!!

I sold the 200 and still have the 172 Cup, don't think I can part with the 172 Cup! The 172 cup feels more like an old school hot hatch (obviously) like a modern 205 GTi, where as the Clio 200 feels like a mini race car / rally car for the road.

Or the best analogy I can think of is, the 172 Cup feels like an excited puppy on laminate flooring, the 200 feels like an excited puppy on carpet. The 200 is more composed and offers better grip, doesn't make it more fun though....

I keep thinking about scratching that Twingo 133 itch.......

 

[Hollidog]

Is the 200 EPAS or HPAS? I've coincidentally got a poverty spec mk4 Clio as a rental car at the moment, it has EPAS and I hate it, same as I hate EPAS in all modern cars. Hydraulic steering is just so much better in the 182 I have at home.

 

[Martin_172]

Is the 200 EPAS or HPAS? I've coincidentally got a poverty spec mk4 Clio as a rental car at the moment, it has EPAS and I hate it, same as I hate EPAS in all modern cars. Hydraulic steering is just so much better in the 182 I have at home.

it's epas but it's good! I never saw it as a negative, my Mrs has a mk4 clip with the same epas your talking about and the epas in my mk4 220 feels like a different car, it's all in the setup/calibration

 

[scalino65]

Hi. Ok, so an overdue update and a question if i may..
Shortly after the i posted, i bought a lovely 172 cup. two owners from new mid 60s miles. It is utterly fantastic and matches the descriptions that people gave me of 172 cups. I've done quite a lot of bits and bobs on it, had to change the alternator and got underneath it and cleaned it up and epoxy painted it and sprayed half a ton of bilt hamber cavity waxes into it/ on it.
There is only one problem....after massive teasing from my wife about being aboy racer (at 50yrs old) and complaining about teh rorty exhaust and teh gold williams wheels i got for it....she's nicked it and i never get to use it anymore.
SO, i've decided to sell my billion year old bmw estate and buy another cliosport. So, hahaha, i have the same decision to make again..do I go 182 cup or 200 cup. The factors seem to be (from my mrs again, so clearly whatever happens it looks like i'll be gettig my 172 cup back) (i) fuel economy which is amazing in the cup and (ii) airbags/safety.
Is the 182 better equipped safety wise with more airbags,etc than the 172? I'd be surprised if the answer is yes.
Also, is the 200 rs far worse on petrol? i was amazed about the 172.
I guess there is no real dilemma here: 182 cup is so similar i should go straight to 200.
I'll flog the bmw then get on the hunt...
cheers.

 

[imprezaworks]

200.

Unless mpg (around 25) is a concern.

 

[hsustyle]

I had both for a year.
172 cup was a tad quicker in a straight line, more raw, punchy and frantic. Everything felt like an event when you're really pushing on.. Corner, straight, corner, corner. Definitely demanded more concentration.

The 200 was more clinical, the handling was immense and I could get into more of a pattern down a nice county lane. Felt Smoother and maybe a tad too capable sometimes. Mpg was around 30 consistently with a remap

If you're after pure thrills then I'd say 172 Cup. It'll give you that 'oh s**t how did I not die' feeling while still having faith in the car. And that's coming from someone who just picked up another 200!

I'm in Tunbridge Wells, Kent if you want to go out in the 200. Cup packed & Recaros.

 

[Iain C]

It's not quite the same but I moved from a 172 cup to a R26 megane and i couldn't fault the R26 such a nicer place to be sat and do decent journey in , with a few small mods they are a rapid machine and grip so well.
Thankfully though i kept the cup and I have now sold the R26, I'm not sure if it was the weight difference or just how well the R26 did fast but it felt numb compared to the cup.
After i sold the meg i jumped in the clio the other week and went for a sunday morning blast and at first i thought what have i done , rattly interior basic and just starting to looked feel its age inside, but once i got it out on some of my favourite roads i was glad i made the choice to keep the old girl.

Exactly the same here. Had the r26 2 years and it was great. I've had my 172 cup 16 years.

 

[imprezaworks]

16 Years, wowzers

 

[marc1330]

Exactly the same here. Had the r26 2 years and it was great. I've had my 172 cup 16 years.

Good going!! I'm in my 13th year.

 

[Plummer]

Yeah that’s essentially what you have to do with them mate. Keep them going to the gearchange bleep and change. They don’t feel as urgent as a 172, but that’s because they’re a more refined car in Clio terms.

I’ve got an AG200 with all the desirable bits on it, so Recaros and speedlines. It’s one of 55 AG’s to come out of the factory and 1 of only 2 that came from the factory with a black roof. Does that mean it’ll be more desirable in the future because it’s also low miles (49k) - god knows. Unfortunately I don’t think I’ll have it long enough to find out if this would be the case.

RIP me with my AG on 117k ?

 

[16v_er]

Having had a 172 cup which I adored I then had a jdm ep3 which I hated. Mainly due to the eps steering feel. I would be looking at a 200 in the near future. Is the steering on the mk3 as terrible as the ep3 civic? Ta.

 

[Coops Mk1]

Buy the iceberg mk1 16v on eBay. That's a clio

 

[imprezaworks]

Having had a 172 cup which I adored I then had a jdm ep3 which I hated. Mainly due to the eps steering feel. I would be looking at a 200 in the near future. Is the steering on the mk3 as terrible as the ep3 civic? Ta.

I didn't see the hate when I had a face lift ep3.

 

[16v_er]

I found mine to be dull as dishwasher in terms of feedback. Two previous cars were a teg dc2 and a 172 cup. So maybe coming off the back of those two I was expecting too much. I assume the 200 has a better feel to the eps system?

 

[White16valver]

Buy the iceberg mk1 16v on eBay. That's a clio

Hnnnnng

So much want.

 

[Martin_172]

I found mine to be dull as dishwasher in terms of feedback. Two previous cars were a teg dc2 and a 172 cup. So maybe coming off the back of those two I was expecting too much. I assume the 200 has a better feel to the eps system?

EP3 was one of the biggest disappointments for me, the steering was atrocious, I couldn't feel what was going on under me!

The 197/200 is nothing like that at all even though it runs epas

 

[BaileyWolves]

I agree with all the above I now have a 172 cup and previous a modified ep3 the steering on the civic was awful despite all the upgrades the cup is in a different league handling wise

 

[16v_er]

EP3 was one of the biggest disappointments for me, the steering was atrocious, I couldn't feel what was going on under me!

The 197/200 is nothing like that at all even though it runs epas

Cheers matey. Exactly what I wanted to know.

 

[donnylad]

in totally standard form which would be the quickest around a small twisty track? curborough for example?

 

[imprezaworks]

Driver being equal I'd go with the Clio, maybe.

 

[jp_lcr]

A few of my class who are in 200 Cups said they previously ran 1*2s and all think 200 Cup is roughly 2 seconds quicker on figure of 8 in dry, in wet can be closer.

It was a bit disheartening as there are 5 regulars in them plus quick guy in Fiesta ST gives me pretty much zero chance of a podium but I couldn't afford a 200 Cup so no point worrying about it. They also said they'd all love a go in your mod prod 172 Cup @donnylad as the story changes when start modifying 172 can be so light and quicker.