197 Head and Internals in a 172

[Sonic Boom]

Having read a few threads on this subject and having a 197 engine to hand it seems like a good idea.
From what I've read you just need to tap the 197 head for the water pump idler and it bolts straight on then you fit the 197 pistons, rods and crank into the 172 block and Roberts your Fathers Brother.
Also wondering of it's worth getting the 197 head and inlet ported while i'm at it and possible cams but would be happy to run the 197 VVT cams, it's going on an aftermarket ECU with VVT control so shouldn't have any issues there.
What kind of power would I be looking up with this setup around the 200bhp mark?

Cheers Rich

 

[NorthloopCup]

I suppose I'm the best to answer this! What you've read is correct mate. Tap the 197 head to convert it to the 1*2 belt setup. Be aware though, the tensioner stud is higher up than the 1*2. It doesn't make much odds to the belt tension tbh, but thought it was worth a mention.
Everything else is child's play tbh, but I'd fit the crank as well.

Whilst it's off you could get it ported but I wouldn't go laity if I were you. The inlet ports are already huge as it is and the exhaust ports don't need opening up that much either. R3 maxi does 230 on a standard head, but power figures are taken with a pinch of salt tbh.

You'll need a pwm signal to run the fully variable inlet cam or just have it on and off like a 1*2 is. Power wise expect anything from 180-190 maybe 200. All depends on the exhaust and air filter.

Oh one worth noting, your on a ph1 yes? I'm assuming this from your avatar. You'll need to skin the bonnet otherwise the inlet will hit the underside of the bonnet and won't close.

 

[Panda]

Oh one worth noting, your on a ph1 yes? I'm assuming this from your avatar. You'll need to skin the bonnet otherwise the inlet will hit the underside of the bonnet and won't close.

@NorthloopCup
Is that just the ph1 ? Or will that apply to a 182 aswell.

 

[NorthloopCup]

@NorthloopCup
Is that just the ph1 ? Or will that apply to a 182 aswell.

Just the ph1 I think. My bonnet is already de skinned anyway so I don't have any worries.

 

[Panda]

Does the coolant bottle need relocating ?

 

[NorthloopCup]

Does the coolant bottle need relocating ?

Yeah it needs to be moved over the exhaust manifold slightly, or you could just use some flexible reinforced hose for the filter.

 

[Dan@SJM]

It clears the ph2 bonnet, I've got the same setup on Vikkis. Just haven't got round to mapping it yet

 

[MicKPM]

I would imagine it'll make good power either way with those cams and better dephaser, plus that head is far superior to the older X65 castings.

It would be interesting to see what it does to the oil pressure side of things to.

 

[bozothenutter]

watching this....
if going aftermarket ecu ...bung some itb's on it ! :tongueout:

 

[Sonic Boom]

I can't stretch to a set of ITB's I'm afraid, I'm hoping it'll be a reasonably cheap project as I have a 197 engine from my mate written off car and I can get an ECU at nearly cost as another mate is a Emerald dealer.
Think I'm going to get a 172 block and then build it all up first that way it should reduce the time the car is off the road, but I'm going to wait till the end of the season on the 11th October first too.

Yep it is for my Ph1 only just fitted an Alloy Bonnet too, does all the underside brace work need to be removed or is it easier just to buy a GRP Skin?

I also take it it's better to use the 197's Coil on Plugs rather than the 172 Coil Pack too?

Rich

 

[bozothenutter]

Keep us updated mate....actually doing it on a tight budget makes it more interesting for us who dream.....

 

[NorthloopCup]

I can't stretch to a set of ITB's I'm afraid, I'm hoping it'll be a reasonably cheap project as I have a 197 engine from my mate written off car and I can get an ECU at nearly cost as another mate is a Emerald dealer.
Think I'm going to get a 172 block and then build it all up first that way it should reduce the time the car is off the road, but I'm going to wait till the end of the season on the 11th October first too.

Yep it is for my Ph1 only just fitted an Alloy Bonnet too, does all the underside brace work need to be removed or is it easier just to buy a GRP Skin?

I also take it it's better to use the 197's Coil on Plugs rather than the 172 Coil Pack too?

Rich

Just trim the underside skin of your bonnet mate. It's the plenum part of the inlet that will catch, so it's not a huge amount of material to remove.

There's no real benefit to the coil on plug setup over the original 1*2 coil pack and leads. The only reason that I've used the cop is from a packaging perspective and it also looks neat and tidy. With the pms exhaust manifold and R3 maxi evo air box space really is at a premium for me, so having the coil pack to relocate would've meant some custom plug leads, or getting a set of just the longest leads that are fitted to the 1*2's.

The only benefit to running coil on plug is the ability to run fully sequential ignition opposed to the semi of a 1*2, and in terms of performance there's next to no gain from my own experience.

 

[NorthloopCup]

Keep us updated mate....actually doing it on a tight budget makes it more interesting for us who dream.....

Believe it or not, mine has been done on a budget! It may not look like that, but it's true!

 

[bozothenutter]

sure dear......:tonguewink:

 

[Dan@SJM]

Believe it or not, mine has been done on a budget! It may not look like that, but it's true!

So is F1.

 

[NorthloopCup]

So is F1.

Lol!

 

[NorthloopCup]

sure dear......:tonguewink:

It's true! Lol!

 

[rich83]

The only benefit to running coil on plug is the ability to run fully sequential ignition opposed to the semi of a 1*2, and in terms of performance there's next to no gain from my own experience.

I think the advantage of sequential ignition with COP is in the implicit use of running sequential fule injection. As I understand sequential injection is really only an advantage in terms of economy over power. I would suspect though that you'll only really reap the true rewards if you use EGT sensors in each branch of the exh manifold to tune the seq inj properly? Or is there an easier way to make the required per cylinder fuel trims?

 

[NorthloopCup]

I think the advantage of sequential ignition with COP is in the implicit use of running sequential fule injection. As I understand sequential injection is really only an advantage in terms of economy over power. I would suspect though that you'll only really reap the true rewards if you use EGT sensors in each branch of the exh manifold to tune the seq inj properly? Or is there an easier way to make the required per cylinder fuel trims?

Agreed. Vw are kings of emissions/economy, so maybe they have a fancy system to measure it...........lol!
As far as I'm aware though, egt sensors in each branch is the only way to do this. @Dan@SJM (aka terry tibbs - talk to me!) will be able to give more light on this as he's had way more experience than me.

 

[Dan@SJM]

No, realistically you want egt and lambda probes in each.

 

[Sonic Boom]

Small amount of progress made, 197 engine stripped/inspected and spare 172 block sourced.
While it's all apart we were thinking it would be daft not to get the head ported and fit some cams we also like the idea of removing the VVT, so I'm looking for some recommendations as to which cams to fit.
I'll be keeping the 197 inlet and 172 cable TB I could also have these ported too if it would be beneficial?
We also considered having the block skimmed too to raise compression and pocketing the pistons a little more to aid valve clearance with possibly larger lift cams.
These are all ideas we're tossing around but as we're not very au fait with the F4R engines we're not sure what would be beneficial.
Any advice gratefully received.

Cheers Rich

 

[NorthloopCup]

If your going to all that effort why not stick forged pistons in? The oe inlet will be the restriction as well even with the lairy cams.

 

[Sonic Boom]

Although it's lot of effort it's not massively expensive where as a set of forged pistons and ITB's are.
Just wondering what the gains are using what we have.

Rich

 

[NorthloopCup]

Well you've got to overcome the belt tensioner if you skim too much off the block. Difficult to say the power output, but maybe 220bhp. Depends on if the pistons will hold out tbh.

 

[Sonic Boom]

Would that be with a ported head and cams?
Are you in favour of removing the VVT?

Rich

 

[NorthloopCup]

Would that be with a ported head and cams?
Are you in favour of removing the VVT?

Rich

Yes mate. I wouldn't remove the vvt personally.

 

[Sonic Boom]

Any particular reason mate?

Rich

 

[NorthloopCup]

Any particular reason mate?

Rich

Just personal preference. I see it as a lot of faffing for no real world gain if your sticking with the standard inlet. Solid lifters and a 8k plus rev limit, then yeah worth looking at deleting.

 

[Sonic Boom]

Sound makes sense, what cams would you recommend then?

Rich

 

[NorthloopCup]

Catcams 403's.

 

[Sonic Boom]

Cool cheers for all the advice.

Rich

 

[NorthloopCup]

Cool cheers for all the advice.

Rich

You'll need to make sure the pistons are pocketed enough though mate.

 

[Sonic Boom]

How much more depth do the pockets need mate?

Rich

 

[NorthloopCup]

How much more depth do the pockets need mate?

Rich

Honestly, I don't know, but I'm pretty sure that you can't run 403's on standard pistons.

 

[rich83]

I think you can run 403's on standard pistons without cutouts, and this is an opinion formed for a few reasons.
Firstly the considerable gain in lift going up to a 404, it's bar far the biggest jump between any 2 profiles on the exh cam.
Second the 403 has less peak lift than even the 402, so it has more duration but less lift, this implies a design constraint to stop clash time!
Lastly, 403's are the last cam in the range to not even need valve springs.

This all makes me think 403's were designed to make the most out of keeping everything else standard. I've got 403's, but I have a forged everything else too. And unfortunatley you'll not find much information on F4R83x cams on the various forums either, I'm about the only person I know not using 402's or occisionally shrick 😧

 

[NorthloopCup]

I think you can run 403's on standard pistons without cutouts, and this is an opinion formed for a few reasons.
Firstly the considerable gain in lift going up to a 404, it's bar far the biggest jump between any 2 profiles on the exh cam.
Second the 403 has less peak lift than even the 402, so it has more duration but less lift, this implies a design constraint to stop clash time!
Lastly, 403's are the last cam in the range to not even need valve springs.

This all makes me think 403's were designed to make the most out of keeping everything else standard. I've got 403's, but I have a forged everything else too. And unfortunatley you'll not find much information on F4R83x cams on the various forums either, I'm about the only person I know not using 402's or occisionally shrick 😧

Interesting. I was told that the 403's needed the different pistons. Not a worry for me though as I'm on the R3 maxi pistons and knobbly cams.

 

[rich83]

Well it's speculation on my part based on a few "facts", the only person who I found 'using' 403's and said they needed pistons - turned out to be using 404's lmao!!

 

[Mick T]

Having read a few threads on this subject and having a 197 engine to hand it seems like a good idea.
From what I've read you just need to tap the 197 head for the water pump idler and it bolts straight on then you fit the 197 pistons, rods and crank into the 172 block and Roberts your Fathers Brother.
Also wondering of it's worth getting the 197 head and inlet ported while i'm at it and possible cams but would be happy to run the 197 VVT cams, it's going on an aftermarket ECU with VVT control so shouldn't have any issues there.
What kind of power would I be looking up with this setup around the 200bhp mark?

Cheers Rich

Hi

 

[Mick T]

hi, please excuse my ignorance I'm new to Clios . Why not fit the whole 197 engine? Is 172/182 block different? If so in what way? Is there more powerful because of the head/cams?

Thanks Mick

 

[Mick T]

sorry meant to say is the 197 more powerful due to better breathing head?

Thanks Mick