197 Throttle Bodies?

[Tav]

Guy I know just fitted ITB's to his ph2 1.6 106 Rallye and has hopes for standardish MPG as well as better drive ability/power. Someone on the Rallye register is making the kits and they look very tidy when installed. With the right air box you'd think it was still all OEM under the bonnet.

'tis a big outlay to weigh up though, at least you don't have to stress/redesign the engine to run boost for example...and no need to make it rev higher either.

 

[Andy GDI]

ITB's are a great bit of kit but not worth it if your car dosnt see the Red Line on a daily basis imo

I dont agree, mid range torque is the main improvment on most body kits, peak power is better but a small margin than whats achieved in the mid range.

(unless your engine is modified, usually cams etc)

mapping is equally as important, incorrect calibration can lead to big lb ft losses..

ignition timing increases to the point of peak power at any given point will also improve economy as you are getting more power for the same amount of fuel... so economy can also be better on cruise.

Andy

 

[BioHzrd]

Do you have to uprate in ternals ie cams pistons etc etc for Bodies or sould you run the on standards ??? but then id asume that would just be a waste ?

 

[deltav]

phase 2 of testing now ready for the dyno

 

[BioHzrd]

Why the redirected trumpets ??? No room for a filter over them jsut bolted straight on ?

 

[sideways danny]

Why the redirected trumpets ??? No room for a filter over them jsut bolted straight on ?

testing

 

[BioHzrd]

Mon now that dosnt help me i have no idea bout ITB's lol......

Diffrent results oposed to direct fittment ??? spill lol

 

[sideways danny]

induction length trials

 

[BioHzrd]

Porduce smoother air flow into the engine better performance ?

 

[deltav]

Why the redirected trumpets ??? No room for a filter over them jsut bolted straight on ?

because there is a non movable plastic crash structure in the front of the car and testing so far shows she wants the length. hence the 150deg bends up over the engine.

 

[trile]

right above the mega-hot exhaust manifold ? it's gonna suck the hot air..I think

 

[BioHzrd]

Yeah i know the stupid plastic bit your on about !! pain in the arse specialy where they fitted the standard Cold Air intake !!!!

 

[stan*]

Christ, what order harmonics are you relying on there??!! 5th, 6th?

 

[Andy GDI]

it will have an airbox once we establish that the intake works with the lenghts etc... then air temp wont be a problem..

the stock air inlet pipwork is heavily restrictive... to the tune of 5 bhp.

 

[BioHzrd]

What the restricitive side of the size of it ??? or the fact (unsure if its the same on the 197) the theres a stpid bit of platic litraly covering the hole from getting any air from the front grill ??

 

[deltav]

right above the mega-hot exhaust manifold ? it's gonna suck the hot air..I think

yes and no. for testing yes. the gains from running a decent length inlet will far out way the offset for the hot air. besides, the 197 only has a tiny air inlet anyway which we have tested on the dyno and know to be a restriction on power. if you run short inlets that come straight forward then a. they are never going to make the toque, and b. there going to be right up against the hot rad.

the 197 is just another example of trying to make the best from a less than perfect situation.

but at the end of the day this is just another test set. the production setup may and probably will change and include things such as air feeds and airboxes ect. but im not really going into that till we have the answers we need. at the end of the day we will try everything and select the setup that gives us the best results. we don't just chuck something on the car and release it to retail. i leave other people to do things like that.

 

[Andy GDI]

What the restricitive side of the size of it ??? or the fact (unsure if its the same on the 197) the theres a stpid bit of platic litraly covering the hole from getting any air from the front grill ??

on the 197 its a long pipe, from one side of the bay to the other..

its probably got alot to do with reducing noise... and gettins "some" cold air..

 

[Brett]

Wonder how many people will go for throttle bodies on 197's they're pretty new people mite not want to start hacking at them yet whilst they're still worth a lot.

 

[trile]

@deltav, ok, understand now.

but what is this talk about plastic crash structure?
what is it for? can it be choped up to allow more air in?

and also, the second "intake" in the 197, the one above the right headlamp - if it can be fed some cold air (maybe trouugh the lower grill or fog light) will it help ? a bit more air/more bhp ?

oh and btw, the photo of those trumpets is seriously missing a gruppe M cai (like the one for ctr)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v707/milano_chris/gruppem.jpg

or something like that

 

[George k]

Those inlets look very long - and will surely limit power at higher rpm (as in the case of the 182)- can understand the installation issues, perhaps the best compromise would be to go for tapered tracts, albeit even more costly.

 

[Andy GDI]

how do you know the 182 makes less power with longer intakes.... and in reference to what?

we ran a test on the 197 to assertain the best inlet length and came up with that...

we tired about 10 different lengths, mapped each one and recorded the results... that is the lenth that made the best torque...

as deltav has said its ready for "testing..."

also worth looking at the actual length of the 182 std manifold... its LONG!!!

Andy

 

[Fred@BTM]

i thought renault shortened the inake on the 197 to improve power????

what figures is it making anyway? 215??

 

[stan*]

was there much compromise in peak power to get the max torque? i.e was there much peak power drop between the shortest and longest?

 

[Andy GDI]

will know when we have tested...

 

[Andy GDI]

made 180 bhp std...

 

[BioHzrd]

What millage is the car on that your having a play with if it only made 180???

 

[stan*]

we ran a test on the 197 to assertain the best inlet length and came up with that...

we tired about 10 different lengths, mapped each one and recorded the results... that is the lenth that made the best torque...

thought you HAD tested, hence the set-up in the pic?

 

[sideways danny]

thought you HAD tested, hence the set-up in the pic?

did read the previous posts? the length has been tested but not with the bends

 

[George k]

Long tracts will certainlymake best torque, but at what rpm, this is normally at the expense of the top end - several years ago AMD tried an experiment on variable length inlet manifolds and found that the changeover from long to short was as low as 4,000? What do they do to the area under the curve, which is what really matters. My comment was based on the fact that the natural frequency of such a long tract will be relatively low and that having worked with F1 and other race engine bulders/designers I have never seen anything so long. Some BTCC set-ups, in the days when they had more freedom than is permitted now, appeared to be of similar length, but had a significant taper, which again change the natural frequency.

 

[Andy GDI]

simply putting it, we played with the lengths, each time power increased... within relativly std rev limits..

the engine wanted the length..

but we will know more when we properally test the semi production version.

Andy

 

[George k]

Andy, I can't argue with your actual findings - do they suggest that the engine wants different cams/overlap - are you running the variable phasing on the inlet cam still?

 

[stan*]

did read the previous posts? the length has been tested but not with the bends

Yes read all the posts...all this talk of testing and length, never any mention of testing the bends seperatley.

Not exactly a a big deal mate, I was only curious.


George, the length of an intake and the pulse effect this causes works in an overtone principal. As we know, generally a longer length will yield higher specific torque, at the compromise of top-end power. So seamingly the length used as per the pic on this 197 LOOKS overly long, and would cause poor peak power. But if you consider the overtone effect, it would/could yield similar torque with similar power as at it did at HALF the length, one which would be viewed as LOOKING "normal". I say similar power/torque as obviously with the more distance travelled, the pulse looses magnitude and so its effect on cylinder filling is reduced. marginally.
This is all in theory, as to how it performs on the road/dyno is what matters...