197 upper inlet with 172 RS lower?

[Vicente Spain]

Thanks again
The engine is finished, but it is out engine, not start yet.
But few days ago I was thinking about the subject of the pulley and the doubt arose I.
Vicente

 

[Vicente Spain]

[QUOTE="Radugns, post: 11697826, member: 113442"]You can't use the 197 dephaser as with standard ecu you cannot use pwm signal for vvt solenoid. Recent information I got from facebook is that Chris at Efi could change the action in the stock ecu to accept the 197 head oil feeds. So you have to remap the ecu ar first before running it (would be ideal). Running the 197 dephaser can be done with standalone ecu. I port a 182 to accept the 197 inlet, but I did not recommand this to anyone. So, use the 197 crank as it is the best, 197 rods with pistons and the 197 head. You will have a little higher CR so use some colder sparkplugs, 172 vvt with 172 solenoid and remap stock ecu. Without a good timing, you will not achive more than 200hp. You need to use some custom locking cam tool for maximum performance.[/QUOTE]

 

[Vicente Spain]

Thanks very much.
Sorry for my english.
Well if I understand right, I have 2 ways:
I send my OEM ecu to Chris of EFI LTD to change the signal pwm to use 197 solenoid and dephaser pulley or I put 172 solenoid and pulley.
It is correct?
But the 172 solenoid have the oil passages to different height than 197 solenoid, so I think that this is not a viable solution.
Can you send me the Chris email?
Many thanks
Vicente

 

[Vicente Spain]

Dear Guys
I have another solution I think.
I can put the upper 182 head part on 197 head.
Of course, I need to check that the cams turn correctly.
If I make it, I can use the 182 solenoid, dephaser pulley and OEM ecu.
What do you think guys?
Thanks again

 

[NorthloopCup]

Dear Guys
I have another solution I think.
I can put the upper 182 head part on 197 head.
Of course, I need to check that the cams turn correctly.
If I make it, I can use the 182 solenoid, dephaser pulley and OEM ecu.
What do you think guys?
Thanks again

The drilling’s for the oil feed are in the cylinder head mate, not the cam cover,so I’m afraid this won’t work.
The 182 dephaser and solenoid will work in your current application.

 

[bloke]

I'd just run 182 head, less messing around and you'll get pretty similar power but with more torque.

Think I've got a graph with overlay of both ways of doing it, power was almost identical but with the 182 head made about 20lb/ft more torque.

 

[Vicente Spain]

Dear Guys
I payed to have 197 head ported, so now this is the head that I want to use.
I try to measure if the 172 solenoid on 197 head match the oil drillings.
If the drillings oil do not match, then the solution can be talk with Chris to EFI LTD about send my OEM Ecu.
Another idea or solution will be welcome.
Thanks again Guys and Happy New Year 2019.

 

[Radugns]

Need to use the 182 vvt and 182 vvt solenoid and change from ecu at Chris.
LaterEdit:
It does fit and has the correct oil ways if its action is reverted from Ecu. So the 182 dephaser and solenoid is the right setup.
IMO, after reading a lot about this conversion, I will stick my 197 head for turbo application. But it is a fun way to play with them and have a 192 engine )

 

[Vicente Spain]

Dear Guys
Well, for what reason I need to send the OEM Ecu to Chris if I use the 182 solenoid and dephase pulley?
Thanks guys
Vicente

 

[Radugns]

Dear Guys
Well, for what reason I need to send the OEM Ecu to Chris if I use the 182 solenoid and dephase pulley?
Thanks guys
Vicente

The oil feeds in the 197 HEAD are different (inverted) compared to 182/172 HEAD.

 

[Vicente Spain]

Dear Guys
Ok, but If I going to send the OEM to Chris, somebody here said that the Chris can change the pwm signal to use 197 solenoid or maybe I understood bad.
Thanks
Vicente

 

[Radugns]

No, Chris can revert the signal (binary type) of the stock 172 ecu. Pwm is only for 197 one.
You can only use on off signal for 172 ecu. So only 172 vvt and solenoid with reverted action.
More specific, as around 1600 now (with 172 head) it is switched on, and on the 197 head because of different oil feeds should be switched to off. This is why the signal should be reverted.

 

[Radugns]

The 197 vvt can advance more degrees than 182 one, so you cannot use it. It is a must to use the 182 one.

 

[Vicente Spain]

Dear Guys
Ok, somebody have the Chris email, please?
Thanks
Vicente

 

[Radugns]

Dear Guys
Ok, somebody have the Chris email, please?
Thanks
Vicente

https://www.efi-parts.co.uk find it here

 

[Vicente Spain]

Dear Guys
When you says 1600, you talk about price?
I have the 197 pistons, crank and forged con rods.
So, what I can not use the degrees Advance that has 197 pulley?
Thanks
Vicente

 

[Radugns]

Dear Guys
When you says 1600, you talk about price?
I have the 197 pistons, crank and forged con rods.
So, what I can not use the degrees Advance that has 197 pulley?
Thanks
Vicente

1600rpm mate
On stock Ecu you can use ONLY 172/182 dephaser.
The remap is around £300.
There is no need for forged rods if you will use 197 pistons with 197 head as the compression ratio will be around 11.5 to 11.7 :1 (if surface the head)

 

[Radugns]

As a summary:
If you use 197 internals, including the head on the standard Ecu, you need:
197 head
197 pistons
197 or 172 rods (are the same)
197 or 172 crank (197 is better)
182 or 172 dephaser only
182 or 172 dephaser and Ecu remap

 

[NorthloopCup]

No, Chris can revert the signal (binary type) of the stock 172 ecu. Pwm is only for 197 one.
You can only use on off signal for 172 ecu. So only 172 vvt and solenoid with reverted action.
More specific, as around 1600 now (with 172 head) it is switched on, and on the 197 head because of different oil feeds should be switched to off. This is why the signal should be reverted.

I knew I’d told someone about reversing the vvt operation! Lol! Old man now and my memory is clearly fading! ?

 

[bloke]

three different cars on the same graph.

the red one with the torque of a honda is a 182 with 197 pistons, rods, head, cams and inlets.

the black is a 182 with 197 pistons, 197 cams, 182 head and 182 inlets.

the blue one is a standard 182 with group n timing (wasn't meant to be on there but look at that torque!!!!!)

 

[Radugns]

three different cars on the same graph.

the red one with the torque of a honda is a 182 with 197 pistons, rods, head, cams and inlets.

the black is a 182 with 197 pistons, 197 cams, 182 head and 182 inlets.

the blue one is a standard 182 with group n timing (wasn't meant to be on there but look at that torque!!!!!)

View attachment 1400265

Right, because of the CR when having 197 pistons on 172 head is like high comp pistons...around 12.2:1

 

[Vicente Spain]

Dear Guys
Happy New Year 2019 and thanks very much for your great help.
I going to send an email to Chris to talk with he about the theme.
Another little doubt about cams.
I going to disassembly the dephaser pulleys 182 and 197, and I going to try copy the advance of the 197 dephaser pulley on 182 pulley, to try to have similar advance degrees.
Arrived this point, appear a new question.
The cams position at TDC (Timing) must to be the same that used by the tool to make the change cambelt?
Many thanks
Vicente

 

[NorthloopCup]

Dear Guys
Happy New Year 2019 and thanks very much for your great help.
I going to send an email to Chris to talk with he about the theme.
Another little doubt about cams.
I going to disassembly the dephaser pulleys 182 and 197, and I going to try copy the advance of the 197 dephaser pulley on 182 pulley, to try to have similar advance degrees.
Arrived this point, appear a new question.
The cams position at TDC (Timing) must to be the same that used by the tool to make the change cambelt?
Many thanks
Vicente

You need to advance the 197 inlet cam to get the most out of it with a 182 dephaser pulley.

 

[Vicente Spain]

Dear Guys
Thanks very much for everything.
How much milimeters I have to move it?
There is some tool to make it?
If you do not know it, you can let me know who person o company can help me?
Thanks again.
Vicente

 

[Vicente Spain]

You need to advance the 197 inlet cam to get the most out of it with a 182 dephaser pulley.

Dear Mr
So, if I understand that you correctly, on your engine or in 197 engine to get the max power and torque the inlet cam must be moved to reach it?
Because I will try to obtain the same movement on the 182 dephaser pulley than 197 pulley.
So, your advice is advance the inlet cam Although I get the pulley from moving the same grades than the 197?
Many thanks
Vicente

 

[Vicente Spain]

Dear Guys
Somebody know the degrees on inlet cam with off position on dephaser pulley for 182 and 197 engine?
Many thanks
Vicente

 

[Vicente Spain]

Dear Guys
Somebody can confirm if the 182 pulley advance 16 degrees and the 197 pulley 45 degrees?
Thx
Vicente

 

[NorthloopCup]

Dear Guys
Somebody can confirm if the 182 pulley advance 16 degrees and the 197 pulley 45 degrees?
Thx
Vicente

The 197 pulley has a total movement forwards and backwards of that much mate, not just one way.

 

[Vicente Spain]

OK, thanks again and I understand.
I've dissasembled the 182 pulley to see the mechanic system and of course with the pressure is liberated a pin that seems to have an spring and do the move (on), when the pressure decrease, I imagine that the system return to (off) and the pin ensures the not movement.
I have seen several videos about 197 pulley mechanic system and seems work the same way, only I do not know the pressure that needs to liberate pin.
Really, I do not see mechanically speaking why the 197 pulley can not work with the 182 ecu, really it must work, but not variable, the pulley should work on/off, but instead 0-16 degrees, it must be 0-45 degrees, not variable.
About 197 solenoid happens same, mechanically, it must be work the same way, because the Ecu send the signal directly, on/off, not variable, but with the signal (12v) it work same than 182.
Of course seems that these parts can work with 182 ecu, but not variable, but yes in mode on/off.
Please by curiosity, see these videos and take your conclusions.
Thanks
Vicente
First 182 pulley broken pin.

Second 197 pulley.

Third 197 solenoid.

All the best
Vicente

 

[Radugns]

Dear Guys
Somebody can confirm if the 182 pulley advance 16 degrees and the 197 pulley 45 degrees?
Thx
Vicente

Hi mate,
Please understand us, you can only use the 182 dephaser pulley for your application.
The vvt from 197 can only be used with pwm impulse and the ecu set the duty cycle, over a value means r****d the cam, under that value means advance the cam. The 172 and 182 ecu could only turn off and on, above 1600 rpm (iirc) is on and under is off.

 

[Vicente Spain]

Ok Radu.
Many thanks
Vicente

 

[Vicente Spain]

Hi Again Guys and Happy New Year

Well, my Frankenstein clio 182 with 203 engine is finished.

I made another post, but also I want to put here the data.

Data:

All parts F4R832 engine into block F4R736.

Modified F4R736 block for pulley tensor.

182 parts used;

Dephaser, flywheel, clutch, OEM exhaust system complete, included CAT and OEM silencer and reprogrammed ECU.

Ported head with OEM valves.

95 Ron fuel.

I hope this can help.

If some people want info, the engine was made by vgkracing.

I want to thank all the people with their advice and experiences have contributed to it and which I have been able to convey to the tuner of this engine.

Comment that we did two tests one on the 10th and another today with different cams and the ones that worked best are the OEM.

Thanks and all the best

Vicente

 

[Radugns]

@adir

 

[GrzesiekK.]

One of engines with my cylinder head setup for RS197 intake manifold.
Engine setup:
- RS172 cylinder head after full porting, with intake port with new design for RS197 intake
- RS197 piston, forged conrods
- RS197 cams with individual degree setup (second dyno run 220km@222Nm)
- RS182 exhaust manifold, 2,5" exhaust with decat

 

[Vicente Spain]

Uno de los motores con mi configuración de culata para el colector de admisión RS197.
Configuración del motor:
- Culata RS172 después del puerto completo, con puerto de admisión con nuevo diseño para admisión RS197
- Pistón RS197, bielas forjadas
- Cámaras RS197 con configuración de grado individual (segundo dinamómetro a 220 km a 222 Nm)
- Colector de escape RS182, escape de 2,5 "con decat.

Hola colega
Bien hecho.
V