200 Bhp ???

[CrazyK]

Just wanted a bit of tuning info really but didn't want to hijack the Good/Bad Mod's thread.

How many people have surpassed the 200BHP marker in thier 172/182's???

Really Im looking for information on.....
What mods you have done to gain power.
How much it cost.
What else needed , eg brakes, suspension, etc
How reliable the car is since the modifications if there are any issues problems that arise from the tuning.

Any info would be great
Cheers
K

 

[martynh]

I'd have a word with Andy at GDI, all the 200+BHP cars on here seem to have come from his workshop.

 

[EVOgone]

Can anyone list the mods and costs required to achieve 215bhp on a single throttle body ?

I assume for example:-

IK
Manifold matching
Cams
ECU
ETCC throttlebody ?
Cable throttle
Exhaust with de-cat.
Headwork

Anything else ???

 

[Floodie]

What can the standard injectors handle?

 

[M1TCH]

BB Performance Tuning's 172 turbo is 276+ bhp iirc, not sure about the other turbo clios but probably a bit out of most people price range for the install.

 

[theduck]

BB Performance Tuning's 172 turbo is 276+ bhp iirc, not sure about the other turbo clios but probably a bit out of most people price range for the install.

dont they reckon they will get it to 300+ bhp?

 

[CrazyK]

not too keen on turbo's never have been, Im thinking Throttle bodies also I think much more than 200 bhp will ruin the drivability of the car

 

[EVOgone]

FOR 215bhp on Single throttlebody.

So far then, lets add costs....Guesstimate, please help to confirm.

IK 350 inc fitting
Manifold matching 200 inc fitting
Injectors 400 inc fitting
Cams 1100 inc fitting
ECU 1000 inc fitting
ETCC throttlebody ? 800 inc fitting
Cable throttle 50 inc fitting
Exhaust with de-cat. 500 fitted
Headwork 800 fitted


Total £4200 (TBC)

 

[CrazyK]

You can get the K-tec throttle bodie conversion for £3800 + £385 fitting It doesn't produce as much power tho I think its around 200/210 bhp

 

[Steve vRS]

You can get the K-tec throttle bodie conversion for £3800 + £385 fitting It doesn't produce as much power tho I think its around 200/210 bhp

Which pound per BHP is just not worth it in my opinion.

Remember the Clio 2L engine is already in a high state of tune so you are going to pay a lot for every pony you free.

Steve

 

[Andy GDI]

not too keen on turbo's never have been, Im thinking Throttle bodies also I think much more than 200 bhp will ruin the drivability of the car

oddly enough with the correct mapping it can be better... more throttle response and more mid range punch.. this also comes from the right cams...

Andy

 

[edde]

IK 350 inc fitting
Manifold matching 200 inc fitting Ben R does a level 2 work to manaifolds its flos better and helped get more power but its over twice this price i think as there much more work the manifolds cut up and rebuilt.
Injectors 400 inc fitting Injectors are good for 208hp but a little safelty never hurt.
Cams 1100 inc fitting
ECU 1000 inc fitting
ETCC throttlebody ? 800 inc fitting
Cable throttle 50 inc fitting
Exhaust with de-cat. 500 fitted
Headwork 800 fitted
Depending on what cams you run you could get the stock ECU remapped for some of BEnR's camspecs the best the normal ecu with remap can handle is the ones which got 180lb torque on a car reciently which isn't bad and its a fair saving since you keep the stock throttle boy and only need eithe the gdi commoly used SMT or chip waizards £400 or soremap facility. Though you will have to keep the drive by wire throttle setup.
You forgot mapping costs though.
How much for a damaged Honda engine and box run on a stand alone ecu then you'd get a better box and a better engine for more work.

Total £4200 (TBC)

 

[EVOgone]

IK 350 inc fitting
Manifold matching 200 inc fitting Ben R does a level 2 work to manaifolds its flos better and helped get more power but its over twice this price i think as there much more work the manifolds cut up and rebuilt.
Injectors 400 inc fitting Injectors are good for 208hp but a little safelty never hurt.
Cams 1100 inc fitting
ECU 1000 inc fitting
ETCC throttlebody ? 800 inc fitting
Cable throttle 50 inc fitting
Exhaust with de-cat. 500 fitted
Headwork 800 fitted
Depending on what cams you run you could get the stock ECU remapped for some of BEnR's camspecs the best the normal ecu with remap can handle is the ones which got 180lb torque on a car reciently which isn't bad and its a fair saving since you keep the stock throttle boy and only need eithe the gdi commoly used SMT or chip waizards £400 or soremap facility. Though you will have to keep the drive by wire throttle setup.
You forgot mapping costs though.
How much for a damaged Honda engine and box run on a stand alone ecu then you'd get a better box and a better engine for more work.

Total £4200 (TBC)

Edde if you add the prices up then the fitted cost is £5200 not £4200 (or £4.4k if you take off the ETCC TB). I posted earlier the not fitted cost as the total. As per the other thread (??? for 215bhp) it identifies fully fitted TB kit producing the same HP is £3.7k. Or less if you fit most of it yourself, not a big job.

Given this its fair to say that if you want 210/215 HP TB's is the cheapest way to go plus has the benifit of better idle/mpg/smoothness and extra HP potential with cams and headwork for 230+etc...

 

[edde]

One other thing what about having the botom end balenced and some high compression pistins to help with the torque.

Personally I wouldn't bother ists just not efffective tunning beter value is maybe an exhaust and manifold work then spend on suspension and brakes.

 

[Fred@BTM]

ETCC throttlebody 800 inc fitting

edde seriously dude, you need to lay off the crack pipe!!! it doesn't cost £500 to fit a single TB

 

[edde]

edde seriously dude, you need to lay off the crack pipe!!! it doesn't cost £500 to fit a single TB

I never read Evogones post, thats who said that price I just copy and pasted what he said never looked.

Hows your build going though you managed to gt the old engine out yet?

Serves me right though should have read what Evogone said.

 

[edde]

Edde if you add the prices up then the fitted cost is £5200 not £4200 (or £4.4k if you take off the ETCC TB). I posted earlier the not fitted cost as the total. As per the other thread (??? for 215bhp) it identifies fully fitted TB kit producing the same HP is £3.7k. Or less if you fit most of it yourself, not a big job.

Given this its fair to say that if you want 210/215 HP TB's is the cheapest way to go plus has the benifit of better idle/mpg/smoothness and extra HP potential with cams and headwork for 230+etc...

Ooops yep I just copy and pasted your info didn't remember to fiddle the price at the bottom.
Definatly go for the throttle bodies kit the noise from Roamers RR tests makes me want to go out and buy a 2.0 car with a throttle body kit.
Don't forget Roamers can needed a new clutch as its not the best as standard and roamers did a load of RR time so it needed replacing.

 

[Fred@BTM]

the only reason Roamer needed a new clutch (and box+flywheel) was because he blew a 12inch chunk out of his gearbox when launching at Pod!!!!

 

[edde]

the only reason Roamer needed a new clutch (and box+flywheel) was because he blew a 12inch chunk out of his gearbox when launching at Pod!!!!

I thourght he'd damaged the original one and somone you knew had replaced it.
Must be wrong again.
I'm on a roll tonight.

 

[EVOgone]

^^^lol

 

[Fred@BTM]

yeah he did, damaged it so much that the clutch disc exploded down from the clutch pressure plate and out the bottom of the box on the start line at pod!!! oil everywhere!!! (it was on a private test day)

my mechanic mate fitted a new flywheel, new clutch and gearbox for £250 labour!!

 

[Serg]

isnt ktecs turbo conversion around £6k and BBtuning around £6.5k surly that would make more sence for bhp to £ unless u really do want to keep it NA

 

[Fred@BTM]

yeah but its a huge chunk of cash for throttle bodies, add £2K ontop of that price for a turbo!!!!!

 

[CrazyK]

Yeah its a lot of money, the car only cost £7k so to spend £4k on tuning is quite excessive let alone £6k! I have already spent £5K tuning my lotus this year, older N/A engines are so simple but still expensive!

I was chatting to a mate and he recons that the k-tec TB kit is overpriced and your paying a premium for it being one of the only off the shelf kits, He recons that it could be done for about half the price if you shop around and choose carefully the components to be used.

He also mentioned the new omex g4 pro?? its around £600 has anybody had any expierence with this new unit

 

[EVOgone]

It is a great deal of money.....better to buy a faster car.

 

[Ali]

^ indeed!

 

[CrazyK]

I've already got a faster one lol!!

 

[MarkM]

It is a great deal of money.....better to buy a faster car.

Like what??

 

[EVOgone]

Like what??

For as base 172 = 7k + 4/6k = 11-13k

For a base 182 = 9k + 4/6k = 13-15k

For the track i would get an Elise

On the road and track EVO 6/7 (will have bit on for that price like susp and exhaust etc)

Plus the residuals would make better sense as the clio would be worth not much more than the base car price after the conversion. Insurance wont be a million miles different Turbo clio vs Std EVO. Plus the MPG (on the turbo cars) will be similar plus im sure the EVO will be more reliable...

 

[MarkM]

For as base 172 = 7k + 4/6k = 11-13k

For a base 182 = 9k + 4/6k = 13-15k

For the track i would get an Elise

On the road and track EVO 6/7 (will have bit on for that price like susp and exhaust etc)

Plus the residuals would make better sense as the clio would be worth not much more than the base car price after the conversion. Insurance wont be a million miles different Turbo clio vs Std EVO. Plus the MPG (on the turbo cars) will be similar plus im sure the EVO will be more reliable...

I thought he wanted 200bhp not 250bhp.

Crazy K - I wouldnt touch the ktec turbo with a barge pole. I do not know anyone who has had it done. Eveyone always says bhp - what torque does that turbo car run 240lb/ft which is too much for the clios transmission to handle. Until it is proven to run reliably on customer cars dont bother.

Stick with the NA tuning. Spend around 3.5k for 200bhp,AWT cams, smt, manifold match, decat, exhaust and IK. You will get a much more driveable car with power on tap even at low revs.

EVOgone - An EVO, insurance, image, mpg, ugly. Dont get me wrong they are obviously an amazing car that would destroy a clio. But I would never want to own one, didnt yours get stolen?

I insure my 205bhp clio for £600, can do 25-32mpg depending on how you drive, can leave it anywhere without having to worry about it being nicked and IMO it is a very driver focused quick enjoyable car to drive owned from brand new I think it has probably cost me 16.5k which IMO is not bad for what I have. I am into hot hatchbacks and IMO could not do better for the money.

 

[EVOgone]

I thought he wanted 200bhp not 250bhp.

Crazy K - I wouldnt touch the ktec turbo with a barge pole. I do not know anyone who has had it done. Eveyone always says bhp - what torque does that turbo car run 240lb/ft which is too much for the clios transmission to handle. Until it is proven to run reliably on customer cars dont bother.

Stick with the NA tuning. Spend around 3.5k for 200bhp,AWT cams, smt, manifold match, decat, exhaust and IK. You will get a much more driveable car with power on tap even at low revs.

EVOgone - An EVO, insurance, image, mpg, ugly. Dont get me wrong they are obviously an amazing car that would destroy a clio. But I would never want to own one, didnt yours get stolen?

I insure my 205bhp clio for £600, can do 25-32mpg depending on how you drive, can leave it anywhere without having to worry about it being nicked and IMO it is a very driver focused quick enjoyable car to drive owned from brand new I think it has probably cost me 16.5k which IMO is not bad for what I have. I am into hot hatchbacks and IMO could not do better for the money.

Very valid points its all what the individual wants at the end of the day. I would got for a different car. But they are so much fun that why i have kept the cup for so long.

16.5k is a lot of money to invest in a clio but i bet you dont regret it as you seam to love it..

 

[CrazyK]

Yeah I want to stay NA I don't like Turbos, ever since I had a turbo ingest a blade and destroy my engine!! I dont want to go for massive power, stripped out monster, I've already got one and as nice as it is to drive I,m so glad I don't have to use it everyday. I have a full fat 172 and I love the compromise of power and comfort I just feel that the clio would really benefit from an extra 20/30bhp and a decent map to allow the power to come in a bit earlier than that 4k rpm kick.
Also I have a thing for carbs you can beat that instant "live" kick that carbs give you, My Dellorto 45's sound awesome on the lotus and deliver power from tick over to redline. thats why I fancy TB's on the clio, I think the route I will probably go will be the Inlet and head ported polished, decent well mapped management manifold, exhaust and I/K but probably still looking at £2k plus and still under the 200bhp marker

 

[BenR]

Well, tuning is all subjective. Sure you can get a std car that is faster for the same money, or do something else to another car to make it faster, but the owner might not deem that as fun.

Its the same idea that follows people who restore classic cars woth pittence, but still love them.

And then you look at the scoob and evo boys who spend £60k or so on their cars and can point at some exotica they could of bought.

For me, the smaller the car and the smaller the engine, the more fun i'm having.

 

[MarkM]

Very valid points its all what the individual wants at the end of the day. I would got for a different car. But they are so much fun that why i have kept the cup for so long.

16.5k is a lot of money to invest in a clio but i bet you dont regret it as you seam to love it..

Isnt the forum a nicer place to be when these subjects are discussed in a civilised manner.

 

[MarkM]

Well, tuning is all subjective. Sure you can get a std car that is faster for the same money, or do something else to another car to make it faster, but the owner might not deem that as fun.

Its the same idea that follows people who restore classic cars woth pittence, but still love them.

And then you look at the scoob and evo boys who spend £60k or so on their cars and can point at some exotica they could of bought.

For me, the smaller the car and the smaller the engine, the more fun i'm having.

Exactly, a man who knows what hes on about.

 

[KDF]

Isnt the forum a nicer place to be when these subjects are discussed in a civilised manner.

Yes it is.. lets try and keep the thread that way :approve:

 

[BenR]

woohoo, open....now i get to post the post i spent ages writing only to find it was closed lol.....

EVO, just to calm things down......put it this way.

On all the older, el cheapo bodies you cna run for the cossies and vaux's which have DCOE based inlet manifolds, you can build a system yourself pretty cheap. The ren doesnt have this choice though.......well it does, but i dont see a point as you have to bring over a crap DCOE manifold from europe.

1. you'll be spending at least £1500 minimum for the hardware. Bodies, manifolds, linkages, trumpets, injectors, fuel rails etc.
2. you will need to spend a minimum of £500-550 for an ecu.
3. you will need to build the loom, if your proficient, maybe £100 for parts and components to make it look nice...........or £200-ish for a complete one.
4. the odd sensor here and there might rack up to £50-75 depending on the car
6. you NEED a new rad to clear the air filter in any decent way which i would deem acceptable. Without one its just the most poinltess thing fitting bodies. They kick in at about £400-500 for a decent one.

So, assuming the owner can build, setup, map, everything your looking at about £2700 injust parts, at retail from the suppliers.

Sure, you might be able to knock a bit off it by using el cheapo parts here and there, or using a rad off some other car and making up your own mounts and all that. But the point is, if your paying someone else, your also paying for their labour, then mapping and basically their skills.......as with any other service. And take it from me, i dont want to do work for people where i have to use sub-standard components.....or shave and save here and there, i dont see a point. Add the fact the companies are trying to make money, and the price for bodies which are quoted around, imo, are cheap.

 

[Lagerlout]

How do cams effect peak power? Do they increase it much? Or is the biggest effect of cams to alter the power delivery? Which is more beneficial?

Is it a trade off between power gains (very peaky power delivery) and a smoother power delivery with less power gain?

Thinking of getting some for my 172, but unsure what to expect. I understand it depends on the profile of the cams etc but I guess there have to be limits.

 

[BenR]

Yes, its all on design of the cams.

Ultimately, the wilder you go, the more you loose in terms of lower rev range efficiency simply because the engine system cannot generate the VE's required at low rpm due to the excessive cam profile. But that is what vvt and vtec try to cure, running different cam profiles as the same engine at different engine speeds required different operating parameters.

But there is a small margin you can play with that will actually enhance lower end power (through good design and not altering too much in terms of 'wildness' but concentrating on valve timing and motion). And this also reaps its rewards at peak power regions where you have more potential to make power. Whether your engine is setup to use all the cam that is 'available' depends if you have the right modifications.

 

[Lagerlout]

Nice one Ben. So there are ways (and cams available?) that can improve the lower rev range and give the potential for higher peak power? Cool. Sounds like something of a science in itself. lol.