406 Brembos vs willwood 4 pots.

[George182]

Does anyone have experience of both?

I am leaning towards the Brembos because I will be able to run a 300mm disc and of course because the conversion is significantly cheaper..
​

 

[Dan]

i didnt think 406 brembos work?

 

[George182]

I would need a bracket making up, and I'll use scenic discs. But apart from that - job done.

 

[Dan]

I would need a bracket making up, and I'll use scenic discs. But apart from that - job done.

ahh right, do either fit under 15inch wheels, what has the cheapest DS2500s?

 

[George182]

ahh right, do either fit under 15inch wheels, what has the cheapest DS2500s?

The willwoods fit I think.

I very much doubt the Brembos would.

I haven't a clue tbh.

 

[domsclio182]

Willwoods fit under most 15's, the brembos with 300 mm disc need 16's, you can get get 295 mm Ap discs for the Willwoods but they are expensive, plus you can get DS2500 for the the Willwoods for about £65, so a lot cheaper than for the standard set up.

 

[George182]

Willwoods fit under most 15's, the brembos with 300 mm disc need 16's, you can get get 295 mm Ap discs for the Willwoods but they are expensive, plus you can get DS2500 for the the Willwoods for about £65, so a lot cheaper than for the standard set up.

Thanks for that Dom.

I am sticking with my 16" cup wheels which is why the bigger disc appeals to me.

 

[Dan]

For the chance to be able to move to 15s (cheaper tyres for track and what not) I would go with the willwoods!

 

[Cup_Phil]

Here you go ... I've driven with both

Wilwoods
Pros: Very light, fit behind 15" wheels even with 295mm discs, cheap DS2500's
Cons: Not a brilliant reputation (they actually bend in some cases), not as good build quality as the brembos, VERY expensive if you want 295mm (my kit was £1200 and the discs cost a fortune to replace)

Brembos
Pros: Extremely cheap to buy the kit, excellent build quality, IMO more stopping power than Wilwoods, cheap discs
Cons: Pads are more expensive, you need 16" wheels to fit them and the offset of them means you need some with a good dish too them, slightly heavier



The difference in cost is a killer though - 2nd hand 406 brembos can be bought for peanuts, discs are standard off the shelf ones etc..
But if you want to run 15" wheels you have to go with the wilwoods

 

[George182]

Awesome post - thanks phil.

I have just invested in new tyres and wheel refurb for my 16" wheels, as such I am not looking to run 15" anytime soon.

Brembos it is!

 

[MartinR]

Just got two 406 brembo calipers off ebay for £50

 

[George182]

I am working on a similar deal myself

 

[Tunst]

Will the 406 Brembos fit behind turinis with no spacers?

 

[ventura]

Any pics of the car with the 406 conversion?

 

[George182]

Smokeythebandit (I think that's his user name) is running this conversion.

I don't know about the unspaced turinis to be honest. I don't even know if they will fit behind 182 cup wheels

 

[MartinR]

Brackets that are needed to mount calipers £102

http://www.motexperformance-shop.nl...ugels-voor-brembo-klauwen-op-renault-clio-rs/

Smoky's thread

http://www.cliosport.net/forum/show...uot-Big-Brake-Alternative-(Brembo-300mm-discs)

No hope with un spaced turinis or standard cup wheels according to a post in the above thread.

Hope my superleggeras with a 15mm spacer at max will be ok~??

 

[MartinR]

double post

 

[George182]

I have bought the brackets now, I will deal with spacing issues when I get all the gear together.

 

[...]

Here you go ... I've driven with both

Wilwoods
Pros: Very light, fit behind 15" wheels even with 295mm discs, cheap DS2500's
Cons: Not a brilliant reputation (they actually bend in some cases), not as good build quality as the brembos, VERY expensive if you want 295mm (my kit was £1200 and the discs cost a fortune to replace)

Brembos
Pros: Extremely cheap to buy the kit, excellent build quality, IMO more stopping power than Wilwoods, cheap discs
Cons: Pads are more expensive, you need 16" wheels to fit them and the offset of them means you need some with a good dish too them, slightly heavier



The difference in cost is a killer though - 2nd hand 406 brembos can be bought for peanuts, discs are standard off the shelf ones etc..
But if you want to run 15" wheels you have to go with the wilwoods

phil do the brembos and willwoods have the same piston area as the standard calipers .... eg do they need a different master cylinder as per using 197 brembo's

 

[Cup_Phil]

The issue of whether they need a different master cylinder or not is always an interesting one

When I had the brembos fitted to my 106 everyone said you'd need a bigger master cylinder - but I never found that, properly blead they stopped on a dot.

I'm assuming the 4 pistons in my wilwoods have a greater surface area than the one piston in my standard caliper - but there's no pedal travel and the braking performance from them insane, as is the pedal feel. I can get to the point where I'm leaving black marks on the road without locking the tyres up - you can feel everything through them

So I'd say no they don't need bigger master cylinder - but then some people will probably shoot me down and say technically they do

 

[dave438]

Its only the area of 2 pistons of the 4 that needs to equate to the original single piston phil, not all 4. As the standard piston has to move both pads, where as in the caliper each pair of pistons only moves 1 pad, and hence moves half the distance.

 

[mharvey]

Can anyone that has the brembo kit measure up so we know what sort of offset is needed.
I've got a friend with a set of calipers that I can have off him when I next see him but don't want to have to run massive spacers to clear them, iirc my offset is about et37.

 

[Fred@BTM]

there's nothing wrong with the stock calipers!

 

[mharvey]

there's nothing wrong with the stock calipers!

Very true.

Just re read they don't fit under 15's anyway
Was going to give them a try in a few months if I've got the money for brackets but 15's > fancy brakes.

 

[George182]

there's nothing wrong with the stock calipers!

Brembos look nice

Plus the increase in disc size must be of benefit?

 

[Fred@BTM]

bunch of tarts the lot of you!

I must find the article of when the 172 was tested against F360, M3, (about 10 other cars) etc etc, it came second in the 100-0mph brake test

 

[mharvey]

I must find the article of when the 172 was tested against F360, M3, (about 10 other cars) etc etc, it came second in the 100-0mph brake test

I'm sure autocar said that they had a Veyron at 100-0 in 3.4 seconds and a Clio 172 in 3.9 which is pretty astonishing?


edit: Can compare the results here. The last bit is obviously the braking e.g 911 Turbo takes 4.25

http://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=88533

 

[dave438]

bunch of tarts the lot of you! I must find the article of when the 172 was tested against F360, M3, (about 10 other cars) etc etc, it came second in the 100-0mph brake test

They do certainly work very well the first time you stand on them, but where would it come in the 100-0 ten times in quick succession test though, especially on a car with a lot more power than standard and hence can get back to 100 quicker.

 

[...]

Here you go ... I've driven with both

Wilwoods
Pros: Very light, fit behind 15" wheels even with 295mm discs, cheap DS2500's
Cons: Not a brilliant reputation (they actually bend in some cases), not as good build quality as the brembos, VERY expensive if you want 295mm (my kit was £1200 and the discs cost a fortune to replace)

Brembos
Pros: Extremely cheap to buy the kit, excellent build quality, IMO more stopping power than Wilwoods, cheap discs
Cons: Pads are more expensive, you need 16" wheels to fit them and the offset of them means you need some with a good dish too them, slightly heavier



The difference in cost is a killer though - 2nd hand 406 brembos can be bought for peanuts, discs are standard off the shelf ones etc..
But if you want to run 15" wheels you have to go with the wilwoods

the issue phil is usually they pull up too sharp as the pedal feels very soft but stops really quick ...... i did one of the first pug 205 to 306 brake conversions and that suffered , you almost want to make the pedal less efficient.

I have no issues with the standard stoppers now i have refurbed them all , however i should get this bloody thing on track (its just i find trackdays slightly booring unless i know a few people to have a natter with these days )


​should sort Landow in august really .

 

[Cup_Phil]

I never had that problem on the 106 or the Clio - maybe the master cylinder is bigger on the 205.. dunno

I find them very progressive and much better to use than standard calipers.

 

[MG cup]

phil do the brembos and willwoods have the same piston area as the standard calipers .... eg do they need a different master cylinder as per using 197 brembo's

You don't need a master cylinder upgrade for 197 brembos, certainly not on a cup as I have them fitted just now. If anything the pedal feel is improved and bite is very near the top (just the way I like it)

There was a thread the other day about what master cylinder to fit as an upgrade in combination with 197 Brembos and nobody could give me a reason why they were looking to upgrade it, performance is just fine.

 

[MG cup]

They do certainly work very well the first time you stand on them, but where would it come in the 100-0 ten times in quick succession test though, especially on a car with a lot more power than standard and hence can get back to 100 quicker.

+1

I haven't had the chance to track the standard callipers with good pads yet but even with standard pads they stop you alright for a while then there's no confidence in them. I have 197 brembos fitted with oem pads and they never flinched on a trackday recently which cant be said for the 1*2 calliper pad combo so that tells you something about 4 pots. There isn't one racecar that uses a single piston calliper when brake mods are free. The whole cup racer argument is void really as the first chance they had to upgrade brakes by regs it was done, European cup racer championships all run them.

 

[Fred@BTM]

^Burpspeed use the stock stuff without problem

 

[sam JFM]

Personally i have never had problems with stopping power on standard calipers with decent pads, but i have had issues with fade - but if that was heat of the pads or heat in the fluid i don't know.

So 4 pots should help with cooling due to larger pad area and bigger disc?

 

[bozothenutter]

You don't need a master cylinder upgrade for 197 brembos, certainly not on a cup as I have them fitted just now. If anything the pedal feel is improved and bite is very near the top (just the way I like it)

There was a thread the other day about what master cylinder to fit as an upgrade in combination with 197 Brembos and nobody could give me a reason why they were looking to upgrade it, performance is just fine.

actually...i'm gonna upgrade to the 197/200 MBc...but that is morte because it gives me something to to the car...I love spannering

 

[dave438]

^Burpspeed use the stock stuff without problem

Been reading that thread, looks like an amazing little car, not surprised they can get away with standard brake calipers ok considering how high their corner speeds are in their videos! That means not a lot of speed to get rid of compared to a more road orientated car with lower corner speeds, also they arent massive power in the first place are they, 215bhp I think it said? should think that even still they would see some small advantages in terms of being able to leave it a little later before standing on the panick pedal from fitting better brakes though if they did upgrade.

 

[Cup_Phil]

^Burpspeed use the stock stuff without problem

Burpspeed's car weighs 300kg less than most other cars, can carry twice the speed through corners as most other cars and only gets used for 20-30 minutes at a time

 

[Fred@BTM]

300kg? Where did you get that figure LOL! It gets pushed to 100%, even the most heroic CS drivers will only be at 70%

 

[JaredHasNoBrain]

300kg? Where did you get that figure LOL! It gets pushed to 100%, even the most heroic CS drivers will only be at 70%

They seriously push cars, I think Jay took me around llandow and scared the s**t out of me. then he said "I don't want to push the car cos its not mine"
My face dropped as my knuckles were white lol.

 

[MG cup]

^Burpspeed use the stock stuff without problem

True they get by and so did cup racers but disks and pads were replaced like knickers on the racers.

You can see in Tony's latest race that he was struggling to haul it up after straights and locking up which is usually a sign of struggling to stop it for the corner and over compensating. That's what it looked like anyway but I'm sure Tony could confirm, I would say there was fade for sure though.