421's OR Piper Cam's With No iTB's

[Ad172UK]

Right,

As some of you may have seen on here there's a pair of 421's up for grabs at £400.

With no plans to go down the iTB route as of yet I don't know what to do.

Do i go with the pipers @ £340, or the 421's at £400.

From the specs on line there's not much of a difference in lift etc apart from the Pipers have a higher lift.

I've got an RS Tuner so would be using Henk for a remap!

What to do guys??

 

[b33fy172]

I think you need an aftermarket ECU for 421's?

 

[Jay Payne]

As far as im aware they wont work with DBW throttle on the phase 2. Need a cable throttle/different ecu etc

 

[Ad172UK]

As far as im aware they wont work with DBW throttle on the phase 2. Need a cable throttle/different ecu etc

Pipers so far then

I'm pretty pleased as they're cheaper and AndyMan has had good results from them!

Any other inputs?

 

[maupineda]

Henk will map those without a doubt, he has mapped those cams before for someone on here. Go with 421's

 

[Cro]

I too am pretty sure it can only be done on cable throttle not fbw

 

[sideways danny]

Fly by wire itself isn't the limitation, it's the ECU controlling it

421s work fantastic. My favourites in an F4R. You just have to man the f**k up and get a proper ECU

 

[172Ben]

Must resit these....

 

[sideways danny]

Do it, and I'll fit them for best cash price

 

[172Ben]

LOL! Dont tempt me!!

 

[Jonny1*2]

Go on ben, you know you want to

Are these quite aggressive cams Danny?

 

[Laine_16v]

Im with Danny, 421's all day!

 

[sideways danny]

Go on ben, you know you want to

Are these quite aggressive cams Danny?

Agressive is a funny term. They're just luuuuurvly

 

[Dean.]

Danny are you going to this cambridge meet that tom (wests Renault) is setting up? i wanna talk to you about cams

 

[Ad172UK]

Thing is. The 421s are up for £400. But past threads have seen them sell for £310-£350.

Torn!

Danny : cant afford an aftermarket ecu, cant warrant the cash, esp for a NA engine!

 

[sideways danny]

Danny are you going to this cambridge meet that tom (wests Renault) is setting up? i wanna talk to you about cams

depends when it is tbh. Probably

 

[Andyman]

Just seen your topic mate lol

Pipers were awsome for me, torque was unreal (175lb/ft stock TB set up) although i was running them in conjunction with the usual bolt on mods inc headwork etc so what percentage part the cams were playing in the mix im not sure..

 

[Fred@BTM]

428's are s**t "apparently" ahem

 

[sideways danny]

you're confusing peak numbers with spread

 

[Fred@BTM]

i can't believe is not butter TBH

 

[Ad172UK]

So will 421's do any good without the major breathing mod that is iTB's??

Or am I best going with Pipers with no plans to Throttle Body the car.

I Can possibly get the 421's for the same price that I'd get piper regrinds. with a bit of wheeling and dealing.

 

[sideways danny]

they do fantasticly well on the standard inlet

You'll struggle like hell to make them idle well on the stock ECU though, it just doesn't adjust the FBW fast enough to account for the pulse reversion effect you get in a plenum with these cams. higher idle might just about make it acceptable

 

[Ad172UK]

It doesn't idle well as standard in my opinion! LOL

What metal is a rocker cover made out of and anyone got a guesstimate of what it weighs?

 

[Ad172UK]

Are there any extra's needed on either of the cams?

Valve springs etc that may come in at an addition cost on one compared to the other?

Thanks

 

[Laine_16v]

Are there any extra's needed on either of the cams?

Valve springs etc that may come in at an addition cost on one compared to the other?

Thanks

Nothing else required

 

[kevin.s]

do it ad

 

[maupineda]

Nothing else required

same here, I put cams in just replacing cam belt kit and job done. if your car is healthy you don't need anything else

 

[Ad172UK]

do it ad

I'm tempted mate. Might get me a spare head to get gas flowed at APD!

 

[kevin.s]

think you should mate. somthing i would definatly do if i had the money.

 

[DrewBear11]

Where can you buy piper cams from ?

Do you need to send off a set of standard cams to be regrinded or buy new ones ?

 

[Ad172UK]

Where can you buy piper cams from ?

Do you need to send off a set of standard cams to be regrinded or buy new ones ?

Kam racing do them, or motorsport world do them cheaper (google them). You have to send standard ones off but there are plenty floating around for sale on the net to save you going without a car while they're being done.

 

[chris182cup]

How long does it take for piper to reprofile the cams? And what you reckon the total cost would be including fitting?

If you can get 20/30bhp from cams for £800 or 30bhp from itb's for £2300 it sounds very tempting to get piper cams

 

[Ad172UK]

How long does it take for piper to reprofile the cams? And what you reckon the total cost would be including fitting?

If you can get 20/30bhp from cams for £800 or 30bhp from itb's for £2300 it sounds very tempting to get piper cams

Not sure on time frame for re-profiling. But 20-30 BHP from cams is quite ambitious. Fitting wise down here in the midlands you're looking at around £400-£600 with a new genuine cambelt.

I'm not 100% on the price as my quote included a dephaser pulley in it.

If you threw in a Gasflowed head from APD at around £700-£800 then you may be looking at 30-40BHP maybe for around £1500. But don't quote me on that one, there are plenty of specialists to give more accurate figures though

 

[chris182cup]

Sounds very tempting

 

[Gray]

an interesting read....

http://www.catcams.co.uk/cgi-bin/sh000001.pl?REFPAGE=http%3a%2f%2fwww.catcams.co.uk%2f&WD=172%20clio&PN=Latest_News.html%23a317#a317

Reprofiled Clio 172 / 182 Cams

[FONT=Arial,Bold, sans-serif]IMPORTANT INFORMATION – RENAULT SPORT CLIO 172 & 182 OWNERS [/FONT]


Cat Cams would like to make Renault sport Clio 172 and 182 owners aware of the shortcomings of cheap reground cams that are now being sold into the UK market, which can potentially cause serious damage to the F4R’s engine’s valve train.


There are two major problems with reground cams on the Clio 172/182 engine
Firstly, the standard Renault cams use a hollow shaft design, which has the individual cam lobes pressed onto it, using a thermal interference fit. During the regrinding process the heat generated by the abrasive grinding wheel can weaken these joints, potentially causing the cam lobes to twist off the main shaft, with catastrophic results for the Clio 172/182 engine.


Secondly, the reground cams cause a major problem with the F4R motor’s hydraulic followers, because the process reduces the base circle (the base diameter) of the camshaft. Unfortunately the hydraulic follower cannot compensate for this altered dimension and the result is a tappety, noisy engine, which generates harmonic vibrations in the valve train at high engine speeds, again with potentially damaging effects to the top end of the engine.


The solution for Clio 172 and 182 owners is simple – use Cat Cams replacement performance camshafts that are uniquely produced from steel billets, which feature the correct base circle, exactly as Renault Sport intended.

 

[chris182cup]

Yeah but they would say that lol

 

[Ad172UK]

To be fair Cat Cams are always going to say that as cheaper alternatives are going to muscle into their market share.

Andyman has run Piper cams for thousands of miles with no issues and I'm sure he's not the only one to do so.

Surely Piper put some £1000's into R&D where this would've cropped up!

The bit at the end where they say 'Use cat cams .......' Gives it away, there are many other billet produced Cams around!

 

[Fred@BTM]

they do rattle though!

 

[Ad172UK]

Apparently this has been sorted?

So I'm told anyway....

 

[Andyman]

428's are s**t "apparently" ahem

Cant argue with the results youve had from them mate. Not sure if your results are typical 428 or more above average tho..? - For such a middle of the road cam there aint too much info kicking about on here