Big spec N/A cars on here?

[Ross009]

Morning all, can anyone off the top of their heads think of anyone on here who preferably has a progress blog who has built a big spec n/a 172? With that I mean high comp/head work extreme cams blah blah blah just want to have a read and see what others have done. Please dont say just go boost I've done that already and may still do it again but I want to explore both routes, I am also aware it is extremely costly tuning N/A so lets just get those two things out of the way.

 

[mark123]

Some of the ones I know of:

http://www.cliosport.net/threads/btms-beast.588199/
http://www.cliosport.net/threads/newbie-with-a-clio-cup-race-car.540049/page-18
http://www.cliosport.net/threads/260bhp-tonne-clio.523216/
http://www.cliosport.net/threads/racing-blue-ph1-itb-2010-track-season-updates.364943/page-18
http://www.cliosport.net/threads/toastfrenzys-tin-top-some-say.607142/
http://www.cliosport.net/threads/black-clio-172-ph2-from-russia.424690/

 

[Ross009]

Great stuff clearly my search terms were not quite right!

 

[Ph1 Tom]

With a F4R you're best starting with a 197/200 engine if you want to go N/A. The lighter crank, better flowing head and stronger valve springs mean achieving something like 225bhp is much cheaper than a 1*2 engine. You don't need to touch the head and the standard pistons just need slight enlargement to the pockets.

Beyond that it will need better valve springs and further work to the head and bottom end. But the above spec is enough for 260-270bhp/tonne dependant on how far you want to go with weight loss.

 

[Ross009]

Tom are ancillaries etc. all interchangeable so I could just use a 197 block and head then retain all 172 things like exhaust/inlet manifolds and engine loom if I went that way?

 

[ThomasBrentnall]

Chip's putting a 197 engine in his 172 ph1 but it requires a lot of work!

 

[Ross009]

is that more down to electrics though? as being on aftermarket management my loom will be custom anyways etc

 

[ThomasBrentnall]

Drive shafts have been his biggest issue I think!

 

[Ross009]

oh I see is he using the 200 box then? Is there a link to this?

 

[ThomasBrentnall]

197 box (which I think is the same as 200) .

Unfortunately not as he's been banned

 

[Ross009]

chips been banned? wow! ok well assuming it mates to a 172 box should be ok

 

[Ex-User (99307)]

197 doesn't mate to a 172 box unfortunately.

 

[Dan@SJM]

it doesnt mate to a 172 box at all, your best bet is to find a way to contact chip as he I'm sure he will explain all his research to you about the boxes as I know the boxes were a big part of his decision.

 

[Ross009]

Yeah I just found the progress thread he started, It really doesn't seem worth it as I would change pistons/rods anyway also cams so really its only the flow of the head that I would gain tbh. Are the heads interchangeable? Then I could build up a 172 bottom end and a 197/200 head with cams would see the best of both worlds.

 

[ThomasBrentnall]

I think one of the reasons he did it was for the gearing on the 197 box!

 

[Dan@SJM]

You could always do what I've done with Vikki's (just not finished it) 197 internals and head in 172 block.

 

[Ross009]

Is there a difference in piston weight/ design then on the 197? whats the rest of the spec Dan?

 

[Ph1 Tom]

Do as Dan has said, All the 197 bits in a 1*2 block. The alternative is to go forged high company and just fit the head with uprated valve springs and bigger cams then go for more power from the off.

Exhaust manifold can be retained but you need a 197 specific inlet manifold (either AT Power or ported Jenvey manifold) with ITBs and then a Gen90 ECU would be ideal as you can use the full continuous VVT control (you want this as it gives a better spread of torque and higher peak bhp).

I think for the VVT you might need some bits of 197 loom but I'm not sure. Mark @NorthloopCup can tell you though!

 

[Ross009]

Ah cheers that sounds like a plan then long term, I like the fact the newer cars open up some alternate options for the 1*2 engines makes it a bit more fun I guess.

 

[Dan@SJM]

Like so.

Just waiting on my uprated oil pump to go in.

 

[NorthloopCup]

Do you want itb's on it? To run the constant vvt you need to run the wiring for the cam phase sensor that's in the 197 head. You also need an ecu that can run it, but tbh you may be as well just running it the same as a 1*2 - on/off. I'm only going to run it because I've got some particularly nasty cams for mine.

You don't need high spec parts to reach 230hp, you just need the right parts. You'll get 250hp n/a on the standard 197 inlet as well.

 

[NorthloopCup]

Like so.

Just waiting on my uprated oil pump to go in.

^^^^^thats crying out for a scuttle induction kit as well dan! I've got a special airbox for mine.

 

[Ross009]

@NorthloopCup I will be going ITB's yeah and also some fairly wild cams/solid lifters etc prob have to pocket the pistons I was planning on going without VVT though just for simplification

 

[ALD]

Hoping to be doing a 200 head soon so look forward to see what it can do when the standard inlet is binned

 

[Ross009]

Hoping to be doing a 200 head soon so look forward to see what it can do when the standard inlet is binned

Got a build thread mate are you using standard 200 cams vv. etc? Are you putting it on a 1*2 bottom end?

 

[ALD]

No I'm doing it for someone else

 

[NorthloopCup]

@NorthloopCup I will be going ITB's yeah and also some fairly wild cams/solid lifters etc prob have to pocket the pistons I was planning on going without VVT though just for simplification

If your going that wild you want to go forged hi comp pistons then imo. Stronger than the oe cast items. Also it's worth keeping in mind that the off the shelf itb options are too small and WILL restrict the power output.

 

[Dan@SJM]

^^^^^thats crying out for a scuttle induction kit as well dan! I've got a special airbox for mine.

It is, tbh it's crying out to be finished first lol.

(Ps, I haven't forgotten about paying, just not had time!)

 

[NorthloopCup]

It is, tbh it's crying out to be finished first lol.

(Ps, I haven't forgotten about paying, just not had time!)

Lol!

No worries mate.

 

[BIGASH]

@NorthloopCup I will be going ITB's yeah and also some fairly wild cams/solid lifters etc prob have to pocket the pistons I was planning on going without VVT though just for simplification

I’m selling a cat cams kit with cams, solid lifter, finger followers etc Good for big numbers!

 

[Ross009]

I’m selling a cat cams kit with cams, solid lifter, finger followers etc :smile: Good for big numbers!

Ha Ive got to buy the car first mate and buy a house before I buy another car will be spring time! you got any events planned I might come have a nosey at yours

 

[Keith185]

How different are the 172/182 heads to the 197/200? Would it be possible to machine/port the 182 to flow as well and be as effiecient as the 197/200 would be if that were ported etc, or are they quite different in design?

 

[NorthloopCup]

How different are the 172/182 heads to the 197/200? Would it be possible to machine/port the 182 to flow as well and be as effiecient as the 197/200 would be if that were ported etc, or are they quite different in design?

Good question there mate! The combustion chamber is a different design, but you could replicate it on the 1*2 head. It's a relatively simple machining job, but obviously they all need to have the same volume.
To get the ports the same - your fucked. That's the simple truth. The exhaust ports are pretty much identical position wise, but they're slightly smaller on the 197, although that's no real drama. The 200 maybe the same but I've not seen one. I'd imagine they are tbh. Inlet port entries are higher up than the 1*2 head so you'd have to weld up the inlets to put back the material that's been removed to create the original 1*2 port. Then once the heat from the welding has distorted/warped the head you start wondering why you bothered. Lol!
I adapted a 197 inlet to fit on to a 172 ph2 cylinder head a few years back, so that's how I know the ins and outs. It's a huge task to do the job and it's simply not worth the grief. I didn't do the welding up of the ports, it's what I found out after I'd adapted the head/inlet.

 

[Ross009]

But if you were going ITB route you could use a 197/200 set up on the inlet side then use 1*2 exhaust manifold?

 

[Ross009]

Its a shame the renault heads lag behind as it really holds them back when you compare to peugeot for example especially when you compare them to what sandy is doing with the TU engines in the 106's

 

[rich83]

All of those cars are running 1*2 based catcams, anybody know of anyone using mk3 based cams/head? Looking to know what sort of bhp and torque something based on 403's might produce? Retaining VVT and hyd lifters I would have thought 230bhp should be achievable on a 200 head/inlet?

Cheers

 

[Ross009]

No @rich83 it doesnt appear to of been done yet but 197 owners only seem to be seeing 230 with ITB's

 

[rich83]

Yeah I only know of 1 197 that ran ITB's, but I think that had 402's?
As soon as ktec actually finish the gen128 it'll open the door for ITB's on the mk3 really.

 

[Ph1 Tom]

But if you were going ITB route you could use a 197/200 set up on the inlet side then use 1*2 exhaust manifold?

Yes

 

[NorthloopCup]

But if you were going ITB route you could use a 197/200 set up on the inlet side then use 1*2 exhaust manifold?

Surely The answer to that's obvious from my post earlier on this morning?